Since when is that the ultimate criteria we use to deduce fact from fiction? That's why we have so many varying opinions, and subsequent arguments, on these boards. Everyone is presenting what "makes sense" to them as the truth. Meanwhile, they ignore these law enforcement sources that Capeci cites that say Amuso remains the boss.

For too many on these boards, it's a matter of what they want to be the case, or think should be the case, rather than what actually is.

Why u spew ur shit as fact
Grand ave was dead and olny cicero and Chinatown were involved in street stuff
And yet that turns out to be completely untrue

cookcounty is that you?

Like I told your fellow troll/liar cookcounty, I never said Grand Avenue was dead. All I've done is quote the FBI (who also never said Grand Avenue was dead) as info has come out from time to time. Feel free to do a search here, louie. Show me where I ever said that. Or are you just content to make things up and hope others believe it?



They're 2 peas in a pod but they're different people. cookcounty is an aspiring troll. louie is among the troll elite. cookcounty hopes to be one day what louie has been for years now on these forums.

Oh, man. But you guys never fucking stop .

Nobody said it's the ultimate criteria, but you said people think Crea is boss because they 'want' him to be, which is simply not the case.

Capeci's information is based off Crea and other top guys attending Amuso's wifes funeral, nothing more. So Capeci's original sources to Crea taking over are liars?

AS far as I'm concerned Crea is without a doubt number 1 and Amuso is out of the picture.

Shouldn't even be a debate. We crossed this bridge before and if PB says something I tend to believe it as he has not been caght one time bullshitting. Even if somehow someway Amusa was still boss in name ( which I doubt he is) Crea is the powerhouse on the street who the other guys defer to. Therefor making him the boss. The better question would be who is the UB. Which no1 knows so obviously this Family is doing it right.

Tired of the people saying if LE doesn't report it it isn't true. bullshit. LE has gotten allot wrong before and the LUccheses always seemed to kinda stay under the radar ( Next to the Genovese family they probably are the most secretive and well disciplined). No wars and not many informants with the exception of the Casso\Amusa era of the 90's. After all this is supposed to be a secret society even in this day and age.

I suggest you go back and read the article more closely. The FBI stated in the Nicky Scarfo Jr. trial that Vic Amuso was still the boss. 2 other law enforcement sources backed this up. It was yet another law enforcement source that brought up the wake as circumstantial evidence regarding Amuso's position. And one mob source also confirmed all this.

You say you don't want Crea to be the boss but yet here you are misrepresenting what the article said. I've seen people do this on the forums time and again when the official info doesn't square with what they think is the case. Believe whatever you want but you're just one more poster who dismisses objective, public information in favor of speculation, guesswork, and internet forum hearsay.



By your logic, Carmine Galante was the real boss since he was the power on the street for the time while Rusty Rastelli was in prison. But we know that's not the case. I put a lot of stock in what PB says myself but not enough to ignore the information that came out in the recent Gang Land article. The only info that has ever come out about Crea being the boss came from Capeci himself and he has since corrected that in light of more information. People on these forums have simply been pushing, for lack of a better word, for Crea to be boss for some time now. Much the way they did regarding Nick Corozzo being the Gambino boss, rather than Peter Gotti, even though that was never the case.



Like I said, objective, public information from credible sources is dismissed in favor of speculation, guesswork, and internet forum hearsay. Some of you guys need to join reality.

The reality is that Rastelli was eventually coming home. Amuso isn't. And what crew is behind Amuso these Days? He let himself get manipulated by Casso and killed off many many loyal soldiers and capos not to mention trying to kill a woman. And It sounds like Galante got hit for more than just challenging Ratellis position. He was taking over Drug Turf that wasn't his and laying claim to a market that wasn't just his. Which affected every Family. Thats why Supposedly Mr. Neil congratulated WAck Wack after the hit. Different Times and scenarios Ivy.

But like said earlier this is a forum so we can agree to disagree. I respect your stance and opinion.

That's nice of you to say, buddy. Especially considering that you don't really post much. But everyone is entitled to their own opinion, and Ivy is a dedicated student of organized crime and a disciplined researcher. His posts are always worth reading. I don't do half the research that guys like he and Hairy do. I just post what I believe to be true about people I've known, and a borough I've lived in, for more than fifty years. If I'm right, I'm right. If I'm wrong, I'm wrong.

It's clear that he and I disagree on this, so it's best to just move on. There are certain things that I can't back up with Internet links and government reports. And for some people, that's just not enough. If they didn't read it, that means it didn't happen. I personally believe that life doesn't work that way. Furthermore, too many posters on these sites believe that having the last word means they "won" the debate. And life doesn't work like that, either.

I claim no "inside knowledge" like a lot of the other mopes who claim to be "from the neighborhood." And frankly, there are certain things I'd NEVER post, even if meant winning a silly argument. I believe the things I post and I let my track record speak for itself. I've been right a few times, I've been wrong a few times.

My final thoughts on this, and I'm not going into it again:

If Amuso turns out to be the boss----and let me be clear, I don't believe that's the case----then so what? Who's the real power? Who's living in the palatial estate? Anyone seen that house? Well, I have. And I have to imagine that the view is better than Amuso's.

Now please, let's move on.

Ivy, where did the FBI say Amuso is still boss, can you post a link?

I actually tend to trust someone who I thinks in the know on this subject you uptight bellend. You were unbearable with 'Ligambi is official boss, the FBI says so, honest'

Just took a quick look at Google Maps and Crea's road is the only one within miles that doesn't have a street view. Creaville Road! I bet he has family all over that street. I wonder if he had anything to do with the construction?

Nah, he farmed it out to three Mexican guys in Tuckahoe .

Well, as the old saying goes, "ask a stupid question... "

What's a bellend? Is that like a mook?

What's a mook? Hey, Jimmy Mook . . . .

Crea is very smart so IMO at the most Vic is just a front boss .

Any claim that Vic has the same type of authority as the Chin can also just be misinformation. .

The west side is known for leaking misinformation about their administration and it's very possible Crea is using the same tactics

That family is secretive . They are a poor mans Westside lol

But Crea is running the show with very little input from Vic

@Ivy:

You make VERY good points.

But I think you're confusing apples with oranges and looking at things a little black and white here.

The only comparable example to Amuso is Persico. Now they are very different cases. One has his blood family intermingled throughout the power structure of the family. The other, Vic, has been off the street since the VERY early 90's, has no extended blood family involved (to any known or worthwile extent), caused a huge amount of turmoil, convictions and general upheaval in the family.

Now looking at the above the REASON, guys like DOM and myself think Crea is the boss, is because if you compare a guy who's been off the street for 25yrs, caused conviction upon conviction, murdered many of his own, has no blood ties to the current power structure to a guy who is and has been THE earner, was acting for MANY years, has the support of most of the HISTORICAL (and current) power base (Bronx vs 80's Brooklyn), powerful Jersey connections and above all has been on the street for (apart for a 5yr bid the turn of the century) the better part of 2 decades and as if not THE capo, then acting, what do you logically think is the most reasonable assumption?

Because Capeci and LE are ALSO assuming remember. So yes, TWO, LE 'sources' plus a funeral attendance point to VIC. But LOGICALLY, considering the above, you can see why the 'evidence' points STRONGLY to Crea.

And thats not wishful thinking mate, because I HIGHLY respect your opinion. But the case for Crea is AS strong compared to Vic. And you should appreciate thats not wishful, fanboy thinking. Its simple rationale.

Which you need not accept, but respect.

@Ivy,
Because what rubs guys like Dom, myself and PB the wrong way is we take info from Capeci, the FEDS, with a HUGE amount of respect. But we also take it into context.

And on the ODD occasion whereby there's a VERY good case to disagree with Capeci or the FEDS, we only do it with a VERY good reason.

We give that source of information a huge modicum of respect, but end of day it's also fallible.

And what IRKS us beyond belief is when we have good reason (see above) to make a case that that source is wrong, you label us as selective fanboys only hearing what we choose to.

Which in knowing PB (which you do), a somewhat reputable poster such as myself and a very reputable poster such as DOM, this is not only wrong and disrespectful, but also and more importantly, wrongly dismissive of several very level headed contributors who may have something to offer you.

We are not saying we're right Ivy, just that our case is more than plausible and worth more than your dismissive responses.

Apol if Ive spoken out of place for PB and Dom.
But I think not.

No sonny u havnt spoke out of turn on behalf if me pal , I personally believe wot I've said and I stick by it , as far as I know amuso doesn't have any ally's left on the street unless conte , zappola and lastorino to thinking of starting a rebellion for a guy who is gonna die in the can . It's my understanding that all three have been demoted , I personally think ivy and PB r the most knowledgable posters on this forum so it's best to just leave it there . As for it being brought up in the scarfo jnr trial that amuso was still boss , that might have been said to make amuso sound more important than he was to secure a conviction against scarfo jnr ?? I believe amuso and scarfo Snr were un indicted members of that case

And that's where we get into the old debate about who's really "the boss?" The guy with the title but sitting in prison cell or the guy without the title but running thins on the street. Some people would claim that Galante, for all intents and purposes, really was the boss of the Bonanno family for a time before he was killed.



I assume you mean recently, since they had him as the boss going back years.

Excerpts from the recent Gang Land article:

The closest thing to an official confirmation about Amuso's status came in April from the testimony by FBI agent Kenneth Terracciano at the racketeering trial of Luchese mobster Nicodemo Scarfo Jr. in Camden Federal Court. Terracciano, a Newark-based G-man, offered a simple declarative sentence on the matter: Amuso, he said, "is the boss of the Luchese family."

"There is no doubt, Vic is the man, end of story," agreed a second longtime mob buster who's been making cases against New York wiseguys for more than 20 years. "Vic has always been the (Luchese) boss," said LEO#2.

All of that jibes with what one underworld source (call him UW#1) told us: "Vic is still in the chair, still running the show," he said. "They (Luchese mobsters) don't like the fact that he's still calling the shots, but he's not giving it up. He's the boss," said the mob associate, a longtime cohort of the Luchese and Bonanno crime families.



I don't know if I can be fairly accused of being "uptight" simply because I give more weight to what the FBI says than what internet posters say. And we've been down this road before. As a poster on another forum pointed out, we had these same arguments when forum posters claimed Nick Corozzo was really the boss of the Gambino family, not Peter Gotti. They also claimed Jackie D'Amico was not the acting boss of the family. Well, what happened? Gotti was indicted as the boss, D'Amico as the acting boss, and Corozzo as a captain. People also claimed Tommy Gioeli wasn't running things for the Colombo family. Well, he was later indicted as the acting boss. Not that any of this matters to these forum posters. Crea could be indicted tomorrow as something other than the boss and they wouldn't believe it. I swear some would rather speculate and be wrong than simply believe what the feds say and be right.



When Chin was in prison, he didn't run things on a day-to-day basis either. And nobody is saying Amuso is in a position to do that. But Amuso, like Chin, remains the boss of the family and has the final say. Otherwise, I imagine he's content to have Crea and Madonna run things and decide on issues he doesn't need to.



I don't pretend to know all the ways Amuso has maintained his position and power. But I don't really need to. I'm content to believe the FBI does know and that's why they continue to consider him as the boss. If Crea was the boss, the FBI would likely know and say so.



I know it's not posted here and I really am starting to wonder if you guys have even read the article. As I posted above, Capeci mentioned FBI agent Kenneth Terracciano, who testifed at the Nicky Scarfo Jr. trial that Amuso is still the boss. He then listed 2 other law enforcement sources that confirmed that Amuso is the boss. He then mentioned a fourth law enforcement source who seemed to agree and used the wake of Amuso's wife as circumstantial evidence. He then mentioned an underworld source who also confirmed that Amuso was still the boss. So that's 5 sources saying the same thing. But I suppose a dozen more sources could come out, all saying Amuso was the boss, and it wouldn't make any difference to you guys.

By the way, what makes you think law enforcement is assuming? You guys seem to think that the feds just guess all of this, like throwing darts, when they are very careful about their intel. Too many people here sell the feds far short and don't give them the credit they deserve. Without them and their info, whether directly through indictments or indirectly through articles like Capeci's, we would all be in the dark for the most part.



Actually, while you may not be among them, there are many people on these forums who have a history of readily dismissing what the feds or a guy like Capeci has said on any number of issues. I mentioned above about Corozzo, Gotti, D'Amico, and Gioeli. Others did the same thing regarding Chin and Fat Tony. If they did it only now and again, and with good reason, that would be more excusable. But they don't. They are almost always deferring to their own assumptions rather than people who are actually in a position to know. And I haven't come across a poster yet who, in disagreeing with the feds, didn't think they had a good reason.

As far as posters on the forums who have something to offer me, I'll say what I just said on another forum. Looking back in hindsight over my nearly 8 years on these forums, if I simply went with the varying opinions and claims of other posters, and ignored disagreeing info by the feds, I would have ended up wrong the vast majority of the time. That's been proven time and time again. Now, does that mean I just dismiss what others have to say; especially the handful of credible guys like PB? Not at all. Most of the time, I'm happy to take what a guy like PB says at face value. But, in the end, the feds are in a better position to know than anyone on these boards. And that's why I ultimately defer to them.

You make a solid argument Ivy. I respect your opinion and your rationale.

But on this particular issue, respectfully disagree.

Because I think where we differ is that you don't seem to appreciate that a lot of Fed work is best guesstimate stuff at the end of the day. If the hierarchy closes ranks, all the Feds may have to work off is low level informative work, which is distrustful to say the least, and a bad case of Chinese whispers at worst.

So in a situation where most likely NOBODY ACTUALLY KNOWS, it needs to be recognised that what EVERYBODIES doing is best guess work. And that very well could include, you, me, Capeci AND the Feds.
And in that case, which IS the case, then not only an argument can be made for Crea, but a more plausible one. Logically.

But somehow I doubt I'll convince you on this one.

I'm fine "agreeing to disagree," especially since I expect that an eventual indictment will prove Capeci's current information correct unless things actually do change between now and then.

However, again you are making assumptions about how the feds have received their intel in order to dismiss it. Don't forget that, in just documenting a guy as a made member, the feds must have verification from at least two independent sources. If they're that careful about simply identifying a soldier, should we not give them the benefit of the doubt considering the top guys? Especially considering their track record where they've been right the vast majority of the time (at least since the 1980's anyway).

How did we know Danny Leo became the Genovese acting boss back in 2006? Capeci and the feds.

How do we know Dom Cefalu is the Gambino family boss, and Frank Cali the underboss? The feds.

How do we know that the current street panel running the panel consists of Anthony Gurino, John Gambino, and Sonny Juliano? Capeci and the feds.

How did we know that Donny Shacks Montemaranodo was/is the Colombo acting underboss and Benjamin Castellazzo the official Colombo underboss? The feds.

How do we know that Tommy DiFiore is Bonanno acting boss/official underboss? The feds.

How did we know Tony Salerno was the official boss?


All I'm saying is the Feds are fallible and in this one they better have decent info/evidence to sell it because logic and rationale isn't on their side.

And Ivy, they come out with info to back this up? I'll be the first guy to eat my hat.

But until then, gotta go the more rational conclusion.

My thanks in taking the time for your considered responses. Appreciated.

The Fat Tony example is the one major example the FBI detractors have. But I don't think anyone can argue it was the exception to the rule. And how did we eventually know that Fat Tony was only acting boss for the Chin? The feds, Cafaro, and several independent FBI wiretaps and bugs.

Are the feds infallible. No. But their track record from the 1980's to the present is extremely good. Good enough that to so quickly doubt them, as many do, is entirely unwarranted.

Your response Ivy, was meant to read:

"Likewise Sonny, it's been a pleasure debating the issue with you. I know, I, Ivy League, is definitely the wiser from it."

Or something similar.

*cheesy grin*

How about, do you like your hat with or without barbecue sauce?

Ivy, I'm happy to agree with the FBI on 99% of what they say, but on this occasion I'm going with someone who I trust and think is in the know, why is that so hard to comprehend? the FBI make mistakes every now and then, as of 2012 the FBI and Capeci thought Crea was official boss, I wouldn't be surprised if the feds get two completely different sides to the story of who's boss between the Bronx/EH and the Brooklyn faction. Like some people say, it could be just LE/Capeci trying to cause a stir, or it could be Amuso holding the title with no say in what goes on.

As for the LE agent who claimed Amuso has final say, that's laughable considering pretty much EVERYONE loyal to him was locked up for a significant amount of time and the power had shifted back to the Bronx.

FBI don't even know who the underboss is, it's killing them.