There are 11-1200 wiseguys in the U.S, out of all of these - there are about 50 people who turned rat... seems like a small number and the Five families doesn't seem as much smaller as they did back in the day.. what do you guys think?

I think your numbers may be off in regards to 50 guys I the U.S who have ratted.

No doubt. I'd say at the very least 80-100. Also where did you get the 11-1200 number? Is that just made guys or including associates?

The mob will never die.

The current total membership is around 1,000. There's been a little over 100 known made members who have flipped throughout history but, even today, those that flip are still very much in the minority.

It will always be around in some form.

Most of those who flipped have been in the past 25 years. Even one guy can take down dozens. Look at what Calabrese did in Chicago and D'Arco, Gravano, and Massino did in NY.

What form? You can say there is still a mob in KC and LA, but they're not structured families. Just a bunch of hustlers and bookies with Italian last names. What made the mob different from other gangs was the family structure, political power, and infiltration of businesses and unions.

As the connections to Italy become more and more diluted with each generation it will impact on them. These days people intermarry into different cultures and are very much 'americanised'. There will always be crime but I don't see the 5 mafia families of New York surviving as they are now, they'll have to change the rules for induction. Once that happens it's dead, nobody emigrates from Italy anymore.

For instance The Irish mobs have more or less disappeared over the past 20 years, what's left is a few third and fourth generation street gangs in Boston and Philly. This will happen to the mafia, the families will be taken over/incorporated into bigger gangs comprised of people from all different backgrounds, severing the link to the home country in the process.

I don't think the rules for induction will ever change. I think the mob will cease to exist before that happens.

That's what I'm saying the mob will die and be incorporated into other crime organisations. They don't have a large pool of blue collar kids to pull from anymore, these kids go to college these days for the most part or else get a straight job.

I listened to an interview with Frankie Valli recently talking about his movie and he said when grew up in 50s working class Italian Jersey that the biggest thing these kids aspired to become was a made man in the mob. They'd no chance of college education, it was either work manual labor at the docks, construction etc or try the other life.

Criminal organizations will always exist because criminal minded people will always exist. That will never change. But anyone who thinks the Italian American mob will hang around for centuries like it has in Italy isn't being very realistic.

Assimilation and attrition have already taken their toll, and the changes in the immigration laws guarantee that we'll never get the influx of Southern Italians and Sicilians that so many of the mob watchers are looking for to keep it going.

Italian Americans produce more college graduates in the United States today than any of the other European groups who came here between 1880 and 1920, save for the Jews. But don't forget, the Jews came from all over Europe, not just one country. So why turn to crime?

I'm no bleeding heart, but it's true that 90 percent of the time it's the circumstances that make a criminal, not their last name. And although there will always be an anomaly here and there, it's very difficult to develop a true gangster mentality when you grow up in the suburbs not wanting for anything.

All that said, I suspect that in New York the families will hang around for another couple of generations in their present form. Beyond that, it will evolve into something that's still a criminal organization. But it won't much resemble the mob made famous by Martin Scorsese and David Chase (which, by the way, were very accurate depictions for their time periods).

It's over for the little guy

The mob is pretty much finished,and the conditions that enabled it to wield the power and influence it had during it's heyday are gone forever.Much has been said about the younger generations of Italian Americans not having the desire (or need) to go into that life,as well as the fact that it's becoming less common to have a Father or Uncle or even a friend in the Mob.
I agree with Pizzaboy that New York (and maybe Chicago)are the last of the Mafia Mohicans,and when they're gone,turn out the lights.

The old rackets are also falling away.
The government has cut down on the control of Unions in many states.
Legalized Casinos have cut into the gambling revenues. If they ever let other state's Casinos operate sports books like in Vegas,fuggedaboutit. The football book alone will pull a lot of customers away.
Drugs are no longer as big a money earner.The old days of controlling the refining and smuggling of heroin and coke have given way to meth labs that pop up overnight,virtually everywhere and are controlled by 1%ers and street gangs.
If you're dealing H or weed or coke,chances are it's coming from a guy who gets around on a Harley,not a Lincoln.

Of course,there will always be smaller independent gangs,some of which may have an Italian or two in the ranks,but by and large,it's over.

While u make some good points Lou , to say there over is very wide of the mark . There r still 11 viable families and the Genovese , gambino and lucchese families r stronger than ever

All i can think of about this discussion is the first scene of '46 Long' - Season 1 - Episode 2 of the sopranos when they are discussion the same thing.

It's nowhere near the powerhouse it used to be, not even close. But it's far from over. The NY families are the only ones that can be considered large criminal enterprises. The Chicago, New England, New Jersey and Philly families on the other hand seem to have already developped into smaller locally operating gangs that can wield a fair amount of power in their respective areas, but at the end of the day don't differ all that much from a more sophisticated street or outlaw motorcycle gang. The mob in this smaller form will still exist for years to come.

The Mafia had it's heyday in the last few decades. It is now deteriorating for many reasons other than rats. I don't think it will go away in our lifetime, but don't think it will ever be like it was before. Law enforcement has gotten more sophisticated and there will always be the rats

sorry to post again, but wise must have realised that when they become famous ie the godfather and sopranos the state will get around to exploring them. The godfather movies helped shine a light on the mob in 70's then looked what happened people wanted to chase votes and get themselfs elected by busting the mob in NY, the NJ mob kept under the radar until the sopranos then they got the light shined on them. Its the system and how it works Not for nothing if they are any wiseguys outthere and they become famous by any means someone from the government will be looking at you and yours soon The feds are a business and they want a return.

The good news is crime will never end.

The people involved in most of the crime will change from time to time. Any place that has poverty, and parents who don't give a shit. So that will never end.

Then it takes someone with a good idea on how to make crime really pay off.

Now that idea can come from any one even an Italian

read it on wikipedia; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Mafia

Seemed accurate..

Where do you get that? I've counted every rat (inducted)at least from what i read on wiki, and Mukermir's chart seemed accurate.

I still think it's under 60-people who have ratted and considering 40 years ago there was 3000 wiseguys on the streets, it seems like a low estimate. But then again, going from 3000 to 1100 during the past 30-40 years...it ain't good. In 20 years people will discuss on this forum weather the mob is still around in New York and people be like ''Yeah, I know this italian who is made.'' even though they're from iraq and dunno shit. But I don't think they will drop that much in numbers, considering how secret they have become. You don't see the mob like before..

About 750 of them r based in the New York families

I wouldn't go that far, Dom.

I mean, I get what you're saying: That they're not done yet. And I agree, they're not done yet. Like I said, I think they'll hang around for another generation or so in their present form because of the adjustments they've made in the past decade---namely less violence, very few murders, plea bargains, and a lower profile. And these adjustments should allow them to keep the status quo for awhile. But to say they're stronger than ever is just too much of a stretch.

There was literally a time where the Five Families could bring one of the biggest cities in the world (New York) to a screeching halt with labor slowdowns. And they're just not that powerful anymore. And sure, they still have a lot of the building and construction trades. But the days of shutting down the biggest construction site in the city, or an entire port, with just a phone call are gone for good.

Long story short: If they're content to keep the status quo, and they're crazy if they're not, then they'll be around for quite awhile. But it will never be the same.

I think the Five families aswell as other Organized crime families throughout the US are going to grow in numbers inasmuch that the Feds don't have them as an investigative priority. Sure they will make a bust here and there but the families wil grown in numbers and rackets. As long as people are willing to gamble, buy things out of the back of a trunck of a car. bid rig on job sites, are involved in Labor Uions, use drugs, loanshark you will have a Cosa Nostra.. According to Capeci the FBI has now three squads of small amounts of agents working in NY, were in the past the had one for every family. They are supposedly focusing more on Terrorism, white collar and Corruption. So whose watching the Hen house? I think they all have crawled under rocks and are going to grow in numbers. They are going to operate as the Secret Criminal Society that they are suppose to be. Just my theory!

Bean : I agree with you on most of that .But they will have to make some adjustments to members that become federal informants.

I do not know what they can do ,but if they get there men to stop ratting that is more then half the battle.

I am not condoning or disagreeing but the feds are not playing fair...

Serpiente, as you well know in the past Cosa Nostra was a way of life now it's being conducted as a business, fueled by money and greed. So it is obvious that when someone is faced with a Rico sentence, they make a business decission and do what's best for them. I agree with you that they have to insure that they choose the right people. There is nothing they can do but be very selective in their choices. As long as the Feds are Armed with Rico they got the upperhand. Sooner or later there is going to be public outcry that these guys commit to many serious crimes to be released on to the public. (ie. Sammy the Bull, Phil Leonetti etc., etc.)

But that's the thing. Attrition has thinned out the quality as well as the quantity. You can not develop a real gangster mentality when you grow up in fucking Scarsdale not wanting for anything.

And yes, there are anomalies. Take Tore LoCasio, for instance. But he's a special case, and a legacy to boot. But for every guy like Tore, there are five Craig DePalmas (who was a beautiful kid, but he wasn't cut out for the life).

Very true PB and Welcome home!

Thanks, Beanie. It's good to be back .