1.) Methinks if he had launched an investigation, liberals would've said it was wasted tax dollars, an attack like that would never happen.

2.) If we're going to be so retroactively hindsightful, it's Clinton's fault for not taking his head when offered during his administration.

I've explained my position, and you have yet to prove how abortion isn't murder.

Also, I find someone, such as myself coincidentally, who believes in life, to be far more mature than someone who thinks life isn't life until it majestically pops out of the womb, and until then, it's the equivalent of a meatball.

I need counseling because I disagree with homosexuality? Well then we absolutely know your boy Eminem needs some serious therapy.

Again, I'd like to know how you validate the difference between "life" and "nonlife" by womb expulsion. Are you ignoring millions of other organisms that don't live independantly, either part of, or for their, whole lives? Are you telling me the Remora, a fish-like creature, which lives on a shark, isn't alive?



Yeah. I'm not even going to bother. Go to your nearest bookstore, and tell me how many books their are on a.) Bush-Saudi conspiracy, b.) Bush's plan that didn't work c.) Why Bush is the worst person in the world.

Alot of conservative books there, or aren't you opening your eyes?

And I think that's absolute (expletive), and I'd like to know how you can back that up.

Right, so by relating them to our brave forefathers, you are just being nice.

:rolleyes:

w00t. Bush "knew" it was false now.

Why didn't John Kerry know it was false then?

Oh wait, I forgot, Bush lied, to wage war...and kill americans...yeah...

:rolleyes:


I could call you a motherfucker now, since, according to you, it's a compliment. But that's okay, I'll just stick to (expletive). :p


Fine. It's not ridiculous.

It's unrealistic and laughable.

Period.

Regards,
Double-J

Hahaha. What about the $3 billion Reagan gave to Osama? And the expert CIA training? What about Bush Sr. not taking Saddam?

Eminem has also spoken out AGAINST laws banning same-sex marriages. He has also said that when he says, "f-ggot," it doesn't always mean gays, which is absolutely true.

a.) 1
b.) 9 or 10
c.) 0

Yep.

Turn on the news. The only liberal stations are CBS and CNN.

Yes.

John Kerry isn't the President. They seem the same intelligence, but if you think they show the Senators everything that they show the President, then you're absolutely wrong.

Exactly.

Thank you.

Enjoy your night. -Pat

The majority of the military are already the lower class. The people who you want to forget are the ones who are fighting for you. -Pat [/quote]Pat- I have to say on behalf of many military members that not all who are deployed have a meal such as the pictures that were displayed to you. It was for moral purposes only and the fact that you believe that those soldiers didn't deserve something such as a home cooked meal as their lives are on the line means you are a very confused person. I remember you stated that you were not a soldier, i can see that now. And yes we all did volunteer to put our lives on the line and we do it willingly even for people like you so that you can have your free opinion on boards such as these. HOwever before assuming things about us military members i would say get your ass up and go over there. I myself spent 7 months in the desert where we had NO showers and we were lucky to even have baby wipes. Your bed was the hole you dug in the ground. Now i know what you are thinking "well you signed up for that" and yes in a way i did. I signed up for many things and i knew one day i would have to put my life on the line however the difference between you and me is that you TALK but are NO action. and you are right we don't need snack cakes, we don't want them. What we want is to come back home to American soil and know that there are people out there like the individuals who posted to you who appreciate what we do bc not alot of ppl can leave their families as we must. To tell them that we cannot tell them where we are going, when we are getting there or calling them once we land due to our own safety. I hope in the coming years when you get a little older you'll realize many sacrifices given by many for you to turn your back on the one's who die so that you may sleep in your bed at night.

* i salute my troops and i'm sorry for those who don't*

You mean the $3 billion Reagan gave to Afghanis to fight the Soviets? :rolleyes:

Wow. Sounds vaguely similar to the idea the "motherfucker" is actually a compliment.

Then again, if you actually did fuck your mother, I suppose it would at the very least, be true. :p

While I'm surprised you can count, I think your last number is a tad off.



Sure, they are the only two that are blatantly liberal. But the funny thing is that until FoxNews came around, nobody labeled news organizations as "conservative" or "liberal."

Now, since FoxNews is #1, it's the poor liberal media that is shouting "no foul."

I'm terribly sorry, but you know what? Maybe people are exercising their right to switch the channel and listen to real news instead of chopped up pinko bullshit from people like Dan Rather or Larry King.

Support?

That's funny, because Bush shared the same intelligence he saw with Kerry and the rest of congress. You think Bush would hide the stuff that says "THIS ISN'T TRUE?"

If he "knew" the intelligence was bad, as you claim, explain to me some logical reason why Bush would go to war with Iraq, that doesn't involve oil.

---

BTW Pat, I also like how you've decided to not answer my questions on womb expulsion. Is it that I've destroyed your argument with sound science, or are you just taking a rest?

Sound regards,
Double-J

The majority of the military are already the lower class. The people who you want to forget are the ones who are fighting for you. -Pat [/quote]Pat- I have to say on behalf of many military members that not all who are deployed have a meal such as the pictures that were displayed to you. It was for moral purposes only and the fact that you believe that those soldiers didn't deserve something such as a home cooked meal as their lives are on the line means you are a very confused person. I remember you stated that you were not a soldier, i can see that now. And yes we all did volunteer to put our lives on the line and we do it willingly even for people like you so that you can have your free opinion on boards such as these. HOwever before assuming things about us military members i would say get your ass up and go over there. I myself spent 7 months in the desert where we had NO showers and we were lucky to even have baby wipes. Your bed was the hole you dug in the ground. Now i know what you are thinking "well you signed up for that" and yes in a way i did. I signed up for many things and i knew one day i would have to put my life on the line however the difference between you and me is that you TALK but are NO action. and you are right we don't need snack cakes, we don't want them. What we want is to come back home to American soil and know that there are people out there like the individuals who posted to you who appreciate what we do bc not alot of ppl can leave their families as we must. To tell them that we cannot tell them where we are going, when we are getting there or calling them once we land due to our own safety. I hope in the coming years when you get a little older you'll realize many sacrifices given by many for you to turn your back on the one's who die so that you may sleep in your bed at night.

* i salute my troops and i'm sorry for those who don't* [/b][/quote]You tell me 'to get my ass over there?' First off, why would I volunteer my life to fight in a war that I don't support? Secondly, you accuse me of not taking any action. Let it be known that I busted my ass for the Kerry campaign going door to door, holding signs in the cold, and even missing half the school day so I could see Edwards, and I'm not even old enough to vote for the guy.

You answer your own question. You, in fact, did sign up to fight for our country, no matter the circumstances, and I commend you for it, but just because I don't support the war and don't donate non-essentials doesn't mean I don't support the troops.

--
No, the $3 billion that Reagan gave to the Taliban and Osama, plus the CIA training. What about the George Bush Sr./Saddam thing? You ignored that statement.

Ah, so you're one of those people who thinks that 'f-ggot' has to mean gay, 100 % of the time?

I'm not surprised you're still being childish and throwing insults around. That means the other 2 are right on target.

That's because a lot of it was moderate before them.

No it's not.

Yeh, maybe they're tuning into Scarborough on MSNBC or O'Reilly. :rolleyes:

Refer to the state department's report.

I find it a rather sensitive topic, but to each his own.

I think his cabinet would, yes. If you think that Bush shows EVERY SINGLE DOCUMENT to the Senate, then I'll have a reason to laugh tonight.

Well, Dubya thinks with "war on his mind" and, you know, "this is, after all, the guy who tried to kill my dad."

Because DMC said it best a couple of weeks ago, we will never be able to debate on abortion when both of us clearly have a different stand that has absolutely no chance of changing. -Pat

1.) The money and training given to Afghanis, not "the taliban" was done to help the Afghan rebels fight off the Soviets.

2.) I didn't ignore it. Bush didn't get Saddam. So what am I supposed to do, flip out? His son did.

You must be one of those people that thinks "motherfucker" is some form of compliment, right? :rolleyes:

Coming from a child himself...

So you're admitting the last number is wrong then? Thanks.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight....btw, that's sarcasm.

Really? Then why are they resorting to unsubstatiated news to boost ratings, as CBS did? Why are they declaring election results before voting is over, and being wrong, to boot?

And then why did I recently see something in the USA Today about how groups, liberal, actually, who want Fox to be banned from using the statement, "Fair and Balenced?"

I think the media has shit a collective brick because people are tired of the spin.


w00t. Forgive me for agreeing with O'Reilly instead of Larry King, or Dan Rather.


Since everyone got the memo... :rolleyes:

Then why aren't you replying to my inquiries as to your support for abortion?

w00t. I know he doesn't. But explain to me, as I said before, why would Bush lie to congress to start a pointless war?

Ah, now I see. You're not going to bother giving a legit answer.

Or it could be that you can't refute your argument, since you never have explained why the womb expulsion is so damn meaningful to life/death.

Regards,
Double-J

It was given to Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban. Ah yes, the Soviets. Which to choose to eliminate? Communism, terrorism, communism, terrorism. :rolleyes:

Ok, Bush Sr. allowed Saddam to get away. Let's say Clinton (I'm not saying he did) let Osama go. What about when we had Osama trapped and Dubya wanted us to use Afghani soldiers, who were with Osama only a month before, to go in and capture him?

Answer my question. Do you think that 'f-ggot' has to mean gay, 100 % of the time?

Ok, so I was 2 for 3 and you were 1 for 3. Thanks.

Exactly.

Do you want to talk about stations calling election results? Two words and a year for you:
Florida, FOX, 2000

Ok, I said the FOX was conservative and I actually agree with that. What does a liberal not associated with the media have to do with your argument? If I wanted 'fair and balanced' out of Fox's slogan, could I get in the USA Today?

Maybe they should stop watching the O'Reilly Factor.

Forgiven.

I don't support abortions. I support a woman's right to choose what she wants to do with her body, as I have been saying. BTW, I already answered your question.

:)

I answered this already too. Dubya thinks with 'war on his mind' and, after all, this 'is the guy who tried to kill his dad.'

The truth hurts. Let it sink in and wrap a warm towel around your head. It'll help. -Pat

This was suppossed to be covered in the other thread, but....

Do you have any facts at all about O'Reilly spinning the truth????

You're post was pretty funny, Pat...

I'm still laughing that you don't think O'Reilly spins anything.

It was given to Osama Bin Laden and the Taliban. Ah yes, the Soviets. Which to choose to eliminate? Communism, terrorism, communism, terrorism. :rolleyes:
[/quote]Wow, I never realized the taliban was even around back in the 80's. Oh wait, that's because they weren't! Perhaps by reading something other than liberal conspiracy websites you might get a cleare view of history.

If you want to go into more detail on the subject of the Mujahedeen during the Afghan war against the Soviets, feel free to ask. But please, don't attempt to blame the United States for encouraging terrorism by funding the fight against the Soviets, since Bin Laden and the other mujahedeen were not terrorists at the time, although many of them would eventually turn against the Great Satan that is America. Attempting to use history to back up your feeble arguments doesn't work when you don't know the facts.

Why must everything be liberal vs. conservative with you, Baggins? You're starting to sound like Ann Coulter. Should we convert the world to Christianity too?

ok, this is just getting to personal. why are you guys still continueing this thread of i notice some hostility

and to answer the last point...bin laden didn't just wake up one year and hate the states, he's pretty much hated them for a while, or at least that's what a credible source like biography channel tells me. but when the american government offered weapons to defeat the soviats, he/they weren't about to say no. so you should check your facts.

I didn't mention liberals and/or conservatives in my post at all Pat. I really don't see where you're getting this idea. Actually I think of it more in terms of "facts vs. Pat". As you failed to reply to my post pointing out your lack of understanding regarding the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan during the 80's, I assume you are rethinking your position?

I never suggested any such thing. Of course he has hated the United States for quite some time, but during the Afghan war vs. the Soviets, Bin Laden was merely a bit player, and his views on terrorism had not yet come into focus.

I didn't mention liberals and/or conservatives in my post at all Pat. I really don't see where you're getting this idea. Actually I think of it more in terms of "facts vs. Pat". As you failed to reply to my post pointing out your lack of understanding regarding the Mujahedeen in Afghanistan during the 80's, I assume you are rethinking your position? [/b][/quote]First off, you mentioned liberals, so don't lie. The money was given to Osama and the Taliban (which were around in the 80's). -Pat

Ahh you're right, I mentioned "liberal conspiracy websites", my mistake. I did not mean it in a liberal vs. conservative manner however. I was merely pointing out where you must get your information from .

Once again, get your facts straight before you talk about how "OMG WE LIEK FUNDED TERRORIST TO FIGHT TEH COMMUNISTS WTF STUPID AMERICANS". The Mujahedeen in Afghanistan were not terrorists when we provided them with funding during their war against the soviets. The fact that some of them later because terrorists does not mean we were funding terrorism at the time.

Of course.

I didn't say that and don't start talking with that mumbo jumbo. Speak to me like a human being. -Pat

You're ignoring the facts...again

Again, as Mr. Baggins so eloquently pointed out - the "Taliban" didn't exist, and we were providing aid against a rather nasty Soviet movement to control Afghanistan (which, in turn, could be why there is so much trouble in Chechnya).

We were at war with Russia, and not only that, they were taking over a soveriegn country.

Let's say it, because it's well documented, and acknowledged even by Clinton aides that he had 3 chances to take Bin Laden. So it's a fact.

M'kay...these people were now on our side. Not only that, why should we send our boys into a terrorist hotbed if we could utilize Afghani mercernaries...or maybe, in your lingo...thugs, to do our job for us.

Well gee, I never heard of it meaning any other connotation.

Double-J: "Mr. Baggins, you are such a ******!"

Mr. Baggins: "Bloody hell, thanks bro. You are too!"

Iceman: "Yo **** , word life!"

Double-J: "Listen **** , you guys totally rule!"

:rolleyes:

---

Does this make you feel special that I'm only contesting one of your numbers, considering most of your other "facts" that you have posted throughout this thread (and others) have been countered with real facts?

That makes it BB Revolution 1 bajillion, Pat 2. We'd definitely 0wn if this was Fantasy Debate.


Exactly wrong.

And guess what? They we're right, as opposed to the other stations. And again, you're not refuting my point.


My point is that the left, which has dominated the media industry for so long, is so paranoid about Fox that they are resorting to legal tactics to try and attack them, since they certainly can't do it in Neilsen ratings.

1.) The choice/right IS abortion. :rolleyes:
2.) No, you haven't answered, I asked for some form of justification that womb expulsion brings life, either cited, or explained to me.


At least he thinks...unlike a certain debate partner I have...

Where is the truth? You've been wrong :p

Why don't you try reading a history book, and economics book, and stop trying to debate with the mentality of a high school student who was taught by a clearly biased teacher.

Why don't you go open a textbook on "Basic Thuganomics," it'll help.

Regards,
That Double-J Person

Hostile? Who is hostile?

I'm just refuting an argument that doesn't have utilize much (if any) common sense and is twisting the facts, that's all.

Who do you think the Mujadeheen turned into?

We were at war with communism.

Nah.

What's that? A list of your partners because you can't debate alone? Ah, alright, I got cha. Who is running the night shift for you tonight?

Wow. You're sick. So the lives of these Afghanis aren't as worthy as an American? Are they our guinea pigs? Is that how you see it? Sick.

You're telling me someone never pissed you off and you never said, "Stop being such a *** ."

Aren't you starting to get sick of it? Maybe you're the one who needs to open the history books.

And they still are right.

The choice is a freedom. First you want gay marriage done with and now abortions? Are their any freedoms besides entering a country and killing civilians that you want to keep?



Because I am a high school student. BTW, my world cultures voted for Bush and is a conservative. :p

Well gee, considering you didn't even know who the Mujahedeen were until Baggins brought it up, you shouldn't be angry. Russia was invading and taking over Afghanistan, and we helped Afghanis in their resistance.

What do you think of all the Russian equipment and shit that the Taliban and Iraqi insurgents have been using? It's all Soviet stockpile surplus shit they've been selling since they lost the Cold War.

Oops.

No, last time I checked, the Cold War was against the Soviet Union, aka Russia.


Just another example of you glossing over a fact, as if it somehow would help your argument anyways...

Let's look at it this way - people agree with me. And they are also refuting your view.

As far as I can tell, nobody has backed you up. Nobody wants to touch your argument with a 10 foot pole, actually, because it's so flawed (or they actually enjoy intelligent debate, clearly something that can't be found from the left side of this thread ).

This comes from a.) an abortionist and b.) a person who thinks genocide is more of murder than a terrorist attack.

I try not to associate myself with those people first of all. But it doesn't matter, because it's a derogatory statement, which means "gay man."

I can't believe I'm getting into an argument over this, especially with a person who considers motherfucker a compliment. Maybe if you are Oedipus, it is...

I've cited, and I've disproved you're argument, and others have done the same, yet you're telling me to open a history book?

w00t!


Again, you have:

a.) Neglected to answer my questions about womb expulsions, either because you can't, or you are afraid it would show how naive you are.

b.) Circling the wagon around the issue we are talking about: abortion, which, is legalized murder.

c.) Spinning the argument again, by bringing in the war.

Try staying ontopic, m'kay? Or you could just admit you're wrong, which would be even easier.

---

Is that test you posted an example of one of your unbiased sources, Pat?

:rolleyes:

---

I didn't say it had to be a current teacher.

Regards,
Double-J

We helped terrorists in the resistance.

And what about the weapons we gave to terrorists in Afghanistan?

You honestly think we would've gone to war if Russia weren't communist?

Yeh, your 3 word response that I replied to was full of facts.

I would like to take note that everyone on here and in the world who is pro-choice is an abortionist to DJ and that is his only defense in situations that he cannot defend himself in. I don't remember saying 'genocide was more of murder then a terrorist attack' either. Show me where I said that. Could it be that you're spinning my words around (again)?

Are you referring to homosexuals when you say 'those people?'

That's exactly what I said. Maybe you should get hooked on Phonics.

I have answered you 3 times now. DMC explained earlier in this thread that debating about abortion is useless since some people consider the fetus/embryo to actually be a human and others consider it to be a fetus/embryo.

It's from a site that makes fun of the Presidential canidates from the election. click -Pat

They weren't the Taliban, or terrorists at all, when we supplied them. They were the people of a soveriegn nation trying to oppose the iron grip of the Soviets.

It's not like we said "Here, Osama, we know you hate us, but take this RPG and blast the fuck out of Ivan, and please don't hurt us on the way back."

We gave the AFGHANIS weapons, not terrorists. What about the weapons these insurgents have been purchasing from the Soviet stockpiles since the early 90's, that they are using against our troops?

Goodness gracious, it was a bloody arms race. Who gives a flying fuck if they were communist or not? The Russians showed their colors, we saw the massacres of Stalin in the aftermath of WW II. While communism played a role, it doesn't downplay the seriousness of this war we had with the Soviets.

I'm referring to the entire thread. Clinton had the chance to get Bin Laden, which is a fact. You can dispute it 'till you're blue in the face, but you'll be wrong.

Actually, that's not true - I've gone to great lengths in this thread to scientifically and ethically blast your argument full of holes, and you continue to ignore my question because you're the one who can't answer.

I don't have to defend my argument, because it's right.

And abortion is murder...pro-choice = pro-abortion...hmm...I wonder...

I don't have to spin them, their pretty well toasted as is.

---

Then again, this comes from the person that says Red China controls the US government... :rolleyes:

---


No, I was referring to people who call me deragatory names. I don't associate myself with thugs who like to call each other "nigga" or "fucker," as a compliment or something.

An insult, from Pat? This comes from the guy who can't figure out how to put a condom on.

Funny, my grasp on history seems to be just fine to everyone else here, yet you've been called on the Mujahedeen which you clearly knew nothing about. You also don't understand Social Security too well, either.

Maybe you need "The US Government for Dummies" or "The Idiots Guide to Economics."

It's not useless - I'm asking you to tell me why womb expulsion equates with life, and to back it up with some form of scientific knowledge.

Actually, it's fine if you can't, because, well, you can't. :p

I never would've guessed.

Regards,
Double-J

Just like Saddam was a good guy when Rumsfeld shook his hand in 1983, right? They were terrorists, but the Reagan administration failed to realize it.

So you're implying that Osama isn't a terrorist? The guy has always hated America. He was with a group that turned into the Taliban. We supplied terrorists.

What about the CIA training we gave to Osama and his terrorists that allowed them to mastermind 9/11?

Yes or no, please. Would we have gone to war with Russia if they weren't communist? You do realize that as soon as Russia sacrificed 20 % of their popular and helped us win WW II, we pretty much turned our backs on them.

That's YOUR opinion.

Pro-choice isn't pro-abortion. That's a horrible thing to say. Pro-choice is supporting choice. It doesn't even have to be all about abortion. It can go along with gays too. It's their choice. If it doesn't effect you, you shouldn't have a problem with it.

Ok, that's irrelevant, but you ignored my question. Where did I say 'genocide was more of murder then a terrorist attack'? I didn't say that. Sudan isn't fighting Middle Eastern terrorism like that of which the US is facing. Sudan is its' own people rebelling the government and fighting for liberation while killing civilians.

So you've never been associated with someone who curses?

Hey, atleast I don't have a problem reading.

Well, considering you're paying thousands upon thousands of dollars for college, I would hope so.

Ah, more insults.

If one cannot live on their own, then they're not that of a human. They're a fetus or an embryo. A fetus or embryo has no chance of survival outside of the womb until the 3rd trimester. -Pat

OMG! If it we're happening now, you'd be calling them the "minutemen of Afghanistan," fighting for freedom against the evil Soviets!

They weren't terrorists, they were fighting the damned Soviets! What don't you get?

Goodness, your hindsight is appaling!


OMG. When we aided the Afghanis, they weren't terrorists.

What don't you get?

Again, for the last time, we helped them fight the Soviets.

Gee, it couldn't be Stalin had been murdering his own people! Have you ever read about the grain massacres and such? Or did you skip over that chapter?


Which happens to be right. :p

When did pro-choice all of the sudden encompass gays?

And I'm sorry - murder of human beings that has been atrociously legalized IS A PROBLEM.

Yes, but you make it sound like terrorism, at this point, is somehow a "lesser" evil than genocide in Sudan, when clearly, they are both murderous and illegal.

No. I try not to associate myself with people that call me names. I'm not a thug.


No, butyou seem to havea problem withsyntax.

Ah, you tell me I needed Hooked on Phonics, and I retort. Can't handle your own hypocritical medicine, Pat?


Incorrect. The genetic makeup is still the unique human genome, consisting of 46 chromosomes.

Regards,
Double-J

And Saddam didn't hate always hate the US either, right? :rolleyes:

Yet you're unable to debate without insults.

They turned into terrorists and the US had to know that Osama didn't like America.

We helped them fight communism.

Stalin was murdering people when he was our Allie in World War II too.

Yes. We learned about Stalin's camps.

Your opinion isn't right. My opinion isn't right. It's an opinion. No opinion is right. Get over your ego.

People often neglect the fact that pro-choice means other things then abortion. When I say I'm pro-choice, it doesn't just have to do with abortion. I believe in people making their own decisions, as long as it doesn't effect anyone else, which is why there shouldn't be an amendmen on gay marriage. It doesn't effect me or you if 2 guys or girls decide to get married, does it?

No, you associate yourself with people who supress the Black race and don't believe in the American people to make the right choice.

Ok, I've insulted you a few times in here, which doesn't compare to the insults you or your tag team partners have been saying.

So if we extracted a fetus in week 9, it could still live? You ignored my point completely. Now answer it. -Pat

Again, you're refusing to admit that you are wrong - we funded rebels against the Soviets...why don't look up when the Taliban was formed, and THEN come back to this discussion.

I didn't insult you...I'm commenting on your ideas.

Yeah, since we even knew who the hell Osama Bin Laden, an Afghani grunt soldier was. He wasn't a terrorist leader, he was a grunt, one of thousands who fought the Soviets. He wasn't some political leader. I'm sure what some little peon in the Afghani army fighting the Soviets would be of major interest to US security...give me a break. :rolleyes:

Right, since it was COMMUNISM that was trying to imperialistically take over their country.


Yes, I know, which was denoted by my argument being in past-tense (i.e., I said "Stalin had been murdering his own people!).


:rolleyes:

So you're saying as long as it doesn't affect us, we should not get involved in something, and respect it's soveriengty?

Well bloody hell! I'm sure there are alot of Jews who were glad we kicked some ass at Auswitcz, even if it didn't affect us.

My point is that I refuse to sit by and accept something I feel is derogatory to society and against the common good and beliefs of the American people and her citizens.


You're the one who doesn't think the American people can make the right choice, since you're against privitization of social security.

And who are you to say whom my friends are? Like you even know.

Oh, my, we're going to compare insults now? Goodness gracious me, we'd better put the kid gloves back on.



Listen, sweetness, you're point didn't revolve around whether life could be independant outside the womb...if I recall, you said:

If one cannot live on their own, then they're not that of a human.

You're implying that if a "fetus" cannot be independent, then it's not human, which I disproved.

Earlier in the thread, you talked about how independance is equated with life, and that once a child is born, life begins. Yet I countered your argument with firm science facts, stating how an organism that carries on symbiosis, or an bacteria, parasite, or, SURPRISINGLY, pre-natal children, are all alive and carrying out cellular metabolism.

I didn't ignore your "point." I've matched it throughout the entire thread. And consequently, I've answered your question many times before, as I have aforementioned.

Maybe you need to come to grips with reality - that your "choice" you seem to care so vehemently about kills a human being. Yes, a human being. Even as a zygote, it still has the same genetic makeup as you and I do (albeit allele differentiation in hair color, eye color, et al). Last time I checked, organisms have unique genetic codes. And an embryo carries on life functions...carrying of life functions, i.e. living, i.e. alive, no matter how you rationalize it. And a fetus is sentient - it's affected by what happens outside the womb, for instance, playing music stimulates brain activity, it can be harmed by alcohol and other drugs, and will respond to stimuli by moving within the uterus.

So cheers to acknowledging my point.

Regards,
Double-J