fergie... all my best to you and your newborn, god bless you both.

Thanks Binnie, he'll pull through Im sure, strong genes (on his mothers side!) another 2-3 weeks before we will be slightly more confident though. Im staying just next door to the kids hospital in Glasgow so close by

That's just it. Nobody deserves to be "mollified." All these ignorant assholes who are protesting should familiarize themselves with the facts of the case. It was a good shooting and Officer Wilson did society a favor by putting that thug in his grave. But the black community there, like all too often, immediately start playing the victim card and bitching about the white man. Holder, under Obama's direction, would have loved to pin something on Wilson. But he couldn't so now they are satisfying themselves and the protesters by making up all this BS about systemic problems in Ferguson and firing people who don't need to be fired. The cops should have gone Gestapo on these protesters a long time ago. Bring out the riot shot guns and tear gas for crying out loud. These people don't want to face reality? Maybe a policeman's nightstick upside their head will wake them up. Then again, probably not.

Ivy, according to your post all you want to do is brutalize people, you really think that is going to solve anything. do you have to revert to terror in the streets?

I respect your take on issues more than the author of article you cited. I recognized the name of the author and I didn't think that he'd write an impartial piece. here is a brief bio

Ronald I. "Ron" Christie is an American government relations expert and Republican political strategist, who has also worked as a member of former Vice President Dick Cheney's staff.
also for an article where he is a stickler for FACTS...he gets FACTS about the Gates incident wrong...most notably that Gates didn't have house keys....
police report for gates arrest
http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/henry-louis-gates-jr-police-report

note that the officer carefully details exactly when he realized that Gates "appeared to be a resident" of the house that was being "broken into"....how early into the incident he knew that there was in fact NO BURGLARY taking place.
I'll re examine Obama and Holder's comments during the case, but stuff quoted in the article is flimsy.

I think politicans and personalities making comments might have had an impact on people following the the story at home, but that the emotion of the protestors was a direct result of the the inconsistencies in protocol....like police report for the incident not being filed/ or released in timely manner....and conflicting eyewitness reports


Initially I rejected the anarchist angle, because I felt that mentioning (implied) white outsiders protesting downplayed that there were Ferguson residents of all colors out there protesting.The Black community especially but people from all backgrounds.Also,I've seen the exact pattern of property damage in footage from riots from the past 4 decades based around similar issues...so I didn't think the thug element needed to be further coerced into doing what they do. I will read more about the outsiders who were protesting.I knew the NBP were out there.I'm certain that undercover agents are mixed in with the protesters too.

The shooting at cops at the point in the story that it happened does seem to point to outsiders. every area felon or criminal instantly becomes a suspect or person of interest and all types of law enforcement flood the area.

thanks for info, will review

The Ferguson police chief says the policemen were shot by handguns from a distance of 125 yards. If true, it points to seriously trained and talented shooters. 125 yards is a very far distance for handgun shooters to aim at and hit human targets. That fact alone will probably help narrow the search for the perps.

Protesters are exercising their rights under the First Amendment. Just like they did in your state when the White young man,Dillon Taylor, was shot and killed.
Until the justice system and authorities sorts it out, people don't have a definitive answer about what happens in situations between police and citizens.

Or...as I posted in another thread
Sometimes the justice system sorts it out..and is wrong as was the case with Marcus Jeter and Bloomfield,NJ police.

http://www.nj.com/essex/index.ssf/2015/03/bloomfield_cops_in_dash-cam_case_reject_plea_deal.html


Note that...despite the simple narrative which you're viewing the Ferguson case with, that in the NJ case
-3 cops at the scene...Two white,one Black
-Internal affairs reviewed the case and found cops did nothing wrong
-just a fluke that the defendant's lawyer was able to recover the police footage that cleared him
-charges dropped against Jeter
-one cop plead guilty to minor charge, other cops charged......suspended without pay and awaiting trial

Ivy,
Do you think that this was the first time that either of those officers had railroaded a suspect? simple yes or no


Now about your "As "Blacks always do" view ,I think Mike Brown was the WRONG case to rally around or frame a serious discussion about police brutality around BUT in an(I think) totally unrelated case I read some of the same "thug who deserved to be put down" rhetoric on this board,not necessarily from you and it insulted my intelligence.
There are real street guys on this board, guys who have done time, people who are connected, and others who have read and studied about crime and criminals for years. No credible person on this board, even knowing what Trayvon's "sheet" was, would EVER consider him anything but a pussycat. I thought THIS site of all places on earth, would be the last place where I'd hear the word "thug" with TM's name.Killers who didn't rat are "stand up guys" but a little punk ass skinny kid is Triple OG menace to society ?? And he "deserved to be put down" for walking from point A to point B minding his business?
But like YOU said "people, like all too often, immediately....and start blaming....."


Were it not for a fluke,Marcus Jeter would be in jail right now for what the judicial system will officially determine to be trumped up charges.reality.Cases that those officers were involved with will be up for review if they are convicted. reality.Judicial system determined the shootings of M Brown and D Taylor to be justified.reality.The introduction of DNA evidence frees people who were convicted of crimes they didn't do..maybe some this year.reality.

The overall picture is not quite as simple as you'd have us believe.

Points to person with military background, right?

Where else can a person develop those types of shooting skills?

It's a person with legal firearms who goes to the shooting range often.

Also, the timing. There's no rhyme or reason to protests or riots, but after the token DOJ report and the fallout and resignations is not when you'd think there would be a shooting.

It doesn't add up.

They could have been trained outside the military or had a lot of practice at a local shooting range.

People can also develop shooting skills with video games.

Another example of recent police brutality took place in Philadelphia: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2015/02/05/2-p...ooter-severely/

On Ron Christie, yes he got some facts wrong about the Gates case, doesn't mean he's wrong the article I linked to.

@F1,

I'm gonna look into the hand that comments/actions by Obama/Holder had on the case and public reaction.

Was just saying that the livelihood of the article's author, as a republican strategist, is to criticize democrats in general and the president specifically.

I read the article anyway, I just don't think he made a strong enough case for what he was saying. If he did,I would have have conceded that. I conceded your points about the involvement of outsiders in the protests.I used to associate anarchists with protests about economic policies.


Comments about the background of the shooter, are just my Jersey roots showing. Gun and handgun laws here are strict relative to other states, so that influenced my thoughts on the background of the shooter(s).

A suspect was arrested who claims he was shooting at a person(s) with whom he had a dispute.

He missed his target but hit two cops? You really can't make this shit up, can you?

But I am willing to bet you PB that a lot of people will believe that ridiculous story. After all they believe the whole Hands up don't shoot narrative.

Absolutely, Beans. People believe what they want to believe. End of story.

Hey Gets,

Was 9/11 a inside job as well? Maybe carried out by the jews (noting all your farrakhan-like anti-semitic bullshit in the past)?

Was the moon landing faked? Were big feet involved?

You are vile racist moron that will continue to attempt to find bizarre conspiracies and excuses for a community that continues to carry out more violence and murders (13% of the population carries out 53% of the murders) than whites and hispanics and asian combined. Although I am guessing next you will claim the FBI statistics and the Crime Victimization Survey are also racist/conspiratorially against blacks.

I also hope ferguson gets the same wonderful black power structure that has served the residents of detroit, baltimore and selma so well. Everything is beautiful now that those towns got rid of their evil white cops.

"Now about your "As "Blacks always do" view ,I think Mike Brown was the WRONG case to rally around or frame a serious discussion about police brutality around BUT in an(I think) totally unrelated case I read some of the same "thug who deserved to be put down" rhetoric on this board,not necessarily from you and it insulted my intelligence.
There are real street guys on this board, guys who have done time, people who are connected, and others who have read and studied about crime and criminals for years. No credible person on this board, even knowing what Trayvon's "sheet" was, would EVER consider him anything but a pussycat. I thought THIS site of all places on earth, would be the last place where I'd hear the word "thug" with TM's name.Killers who didn't rat are "stand up guys" but a little punk ass skinny kid is Triple OG menace to society ?? And he "deserved to be put down" for walking from point A to point B minding his business?
But like YOU said "people, like all too often, immediately....and start blaming....."

@gets, Thank you for expressing that point around using "thug".

@nicky,
Chill. Your expressing yourself inappropriately and being offensive. We're for the grace of intelligence not 13% , it's 12.etc%. Also let's be level headed here, Blacks & Whites are the sole perpetrators of murders in this country together (99%, 1% all other ethnicities ). Ok! Lets not revisit that road of stats , cases, studies, etc bullshit. Discrimination/Racism (All of it is Tribalism) in our country is a scar that's not going anywhere regardless how far we moved into the future period.

You're right, BF. But let me play Devil's Advocate here. How come it seems that when Black people express pride in their background, it's considered noble? Yet if White people do it, they're often assumed to be racists?

I mean, can you imagine the uproar in the liberal media if there was a White History Month? And I'm not looking to rabble-rouse here. I hope you know me better than that. But there's a clear double standard in this country when it comes to expressing your roots (or as you aptly put it, tribalism).

And being that racism is going nowhere (again, you're right, and it's unfortunate on BOTH sides), how long do Black folks hang onto that as a crutch, and use it as an excuse to not assimilate? Because you know as well as I do that some Black people don't want to climb the social ladder.

Now, there are certainly Ethnic Whites that feel the same way. I'm Italian American, and we did it for years. But Ethnic Whites seem to finally give into the "American Way," if you will, and assimilate in a generation or two anyway. Whereas there are some Black families that have been here for ten generations, and they're still living down to the same stereotype that keeps pulling them back down the social ladder. Vicious cycle if you ask me.

If a ruling was announced, like a punishment to a community, figure 3-months of no mail or even better, all social services were cut off for a period of time in areas that have civil unrest, would things settle down and residents be more diligent about holding neighbors and relatives accountable for unlawful conduct.

"You're right, BF. But let me play Devil's Advocate here. How come it seems that when Black people express pride in their background, it's considered noble? Yet if White people do it, they're often assumed to be racists"

PB, We come to an understanding since past dialogue so I'm on board.
Through a mountain of obstacles and sacrifices is why there is considerate pride on the black side. Now as for whites it's the supremacist groups that ruined the feeling through misguided ideology. Every time they speak of "their" white pride, every other non whites is beneath their feet. It seems that white pride is more express respectfully through ethnic ties ( You & other posters Italian roots, Germans, Irishs, Polish, Scottish, Russians,etc.) or through American pride.

"I mean, can you imagine the uproar in the liberal media if there was a White History Month? And I'm not looking to rabble-rouse here. I hope you know me better than that. But there's a clear double standard in this country when it comes to expressing your roots (or as you aptly put it, tribalism). "

Speaking for myself I wouldn't mind and we shouldn't give a damn what the media says. By now we should have a Cultural History Month so everybody can celebrate their roots. As everybody knows Black History was originally a week then others expanded the festival into a month. Double standards is here just like being a victim of rape by a beautiful model/actress . The tribalism I pointing out is the continuing stereotypes/discrimination/conflicts of your people, mine, them, there's , etc.

"How long do Black folks hang onto that as a crutch, and use it as an excuse to not assimilate? Because you know as well as I do that some Black people don't want to climb the social ladder. "

First, Define assimilation by your view. Second , We're talking about a society (not all) that made certainty that Blacks wouldn't be within the mainstream social ladder from the get go. So when assimilation is brought up here & there in different topics it makes wonder Is it mandatory or optional? I just am not quite sure honestly at times. People say blacks have this opportunity to climb this ladder and it happens then others say we're not taking advantage because of ABC/XYZ or another case of LEGIT discrimination rears up. It's like their a tug of war of accept/discourage/ignore.


Indeed a vicious cycle and you have to as they say "walk in another shoes" to understand that catch 22. Often it's true and other times their just raised in a box.

Interesting take ,, pizza. I'd disagree though. Tomorrow in the city, St. Pat's Day is essentially an Irish American parade.The Columbus Day parade is basically the Italian American parade.West Indian Day parade.Puerto Ricans.Greeks. Several ethnicities..though we are all American....celebrate their roots openly in parades in the Big Apple. Nobody ever links these displays of cultural pride as being racist.Nor do they consider cultural clubs, civic associations, etc created by hyphen-American groups to be racist.


The Black History Week, when it first started, was created because ANY reference to contributions by Black Americans to American history were omitted from history books and school curricula. If you are saying that the books should include the contributions of ALL Americans to our country and culture thereby rendering a Black History Month or any hyphen American month "obsolete"..I'd agree with you.Until that happens...BHM, Hispanic Heritage Month, etc....serve their purpose.

Again...very good point.I don't think that this case, of protesting against police brutality in general, qualifies as using racism as a crutch. I think that there are more effective ways of making change than holding up picket signs, but that's the method that those in MO. are choosing to use.

You are absolutely right about "racism" not ever going away.
You won't find many people willing to roll up their sleeves and ADDRESS internal problems and constructively tackle the external ones,including institutional racism. But holding up pickets and marching is easy.






I have to agree with this.In fact it would be hard for anybody to disagree with this.
I have to say that though, in certain East Coast cities,and several cities in NJ for sure....the white ethnics were pushed out of their former ethnic enclaves by large waves of Black and later Hispanic migrants from the early 1970s on.
I'm not sure as many of the last ones living in the older neighborhoods would have moved out and assimilated otherwise.

Blacks who don't want to do better would have to answer the question for themselves as for why. Very easy for me to think that under any circumstance that I still would have become the same person I am today but that's egotistical and mostly BS. True,I don't have the "follower's gene" which leads a lot of otherwise decent kids into trouble, but most decent people come from good stock. For example, we may disagree on issues here and there but you and I are able to communicate honestly without disrespecting each other. We respect ourselves & we are going to show that respect to others and expect it.Think we're both smart enough to know that the people who raised us (family,community,clergy)help instill some of these and other virtues into us.

Unfortunately, a lot of people are born and raised in situations where basic things like self respect and dignity are not seen or developed. It's most visible in poor people as it plays itself out in public ways, but lot of people were just not brought up the right way.Their decision making in life is a reflection of that.

no doubt.
Just an inconsistency.

My take on PB's question about white pride is this:

1) White pride tends to be associated with white supremacists. It was in the past and still is today.

2) The Irish and Italian and their parades and festivities, as well as for other groups, are almost always for national and/or ethnic pride as opposed to a racial one. However, for almost all of these nationalities and ethnicities they are white subgroups. Black Americans who are the descendents of slaves don't have those national ancestries. For the most part their ancestors came from what are now Nigeria, Liberia, Ivory Coast, Benin, Togo, Cameroon and Ghana, but very few know from where. They had their national identity taken from them and cannot celebrate in a Nigerian-American parade (if there are any) or the parade or festival for any other nation. So their identity is in a general African ancestry or identification by color of their skin.

3) White Americans as a whole did not experience the historic victimization that black Americans did. While there were some Irish slaves, for the most part they had indentures of seven years; black indentured servants became permanent indentured servants only because of the color of their skin. Most American slavery was color-based and was legally enforced until 1865. After that came Jim Crow laws that were dominant in the South, but discriminatory laws existed in other places like California too. The last Jim Crow laws were not done away with until the early 1970s. There were also anti-black race riots and lynchings that resulted in several thousand deaths, and time and time again the government failed to enact anti-lynching legislation (look at photos of lynching that are on the internet -- white parents took their children to watch people (even women and children) hanged and/or burned alive, some even had picnics while callously watching the lynchings. Then there were the slights, the rudeness, such as a full grown man being called "boy" or being unable to get a certain job because of skin color.

4) I'd say that assimilation will increase as older generations pass away and when the agitators stop agitating. But the history will always be there. Even today many white people think everything magically got better for black people when slavery ended, but they completely forget about Jim Crow and lynching.

View the "hateful things" at the Jim Crow Museum: http://www.ferris.edu/HTMLS/news/jimcrow/traveling/grid/

View some lynching photos here: http://withoutsanctuary.org/main.html

And here: https://www.facebook.com/MuseunofLynching

This photo is especially disturbing with people smiling: http://schwitzsplinters.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-emotional-psychology-of-lynching.html

Or read about the 1951 Cicero (near Chicago) race riot: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cicero_race_riot_of_1951

I'm very familiar with the Jim Crow laws, F1. As a little kid back in the '60s we'd visit my grandparents in the winter down in Florida (weird because I was just talking about those trips in another thread). Anyway, they lived up in Palm Beach County during the winter but my grandfather had a piece of a bar/restaurant down in Overtown where racism was still rampant and widely accepted among law enforcement and political types. I saw that stuff up close and personal as a little kid. Fucking horrible, only way to describe it.

great post faithful, historic pictures of evil.

thank you for posting them.

@F1,

I enjoyed your post..I won't quote it(no kindle), just a comment on them by number

1.agree....and I in countries where whites are not the majority, race might be a subject that they have to think about in ways that they don't in places where they are the majority.

2.Excellent post.

Speaking for myself as part of the African diaspora...I feel natural kinship with other Blacks who are from this hemisphere, we were just dropped off in different colonies.That's why ,though my family is not from here...You might read me write about something Black people did here in the 1800s and I will use the word "we".Others from Caribbean backgrounds distinctly distinguish themselves from Blacks from here, but that's not my take on it. Brazil,Jamaica,etc..It's all mine.Same root, different branches.


3. disagree. Though the experiences don't compare, all groups suffered abuse and discrimination. Pizza has brought up the relative ease that Irish immigrants had in assimilating here compared to Italians (language,etc)He didn't write that as an excuse but as an observation. So he's not implying that Blacks haven't suffered abuse and discrimination..think he was questioning why people aren't moving forward and it's a legitimate question.I mean if you fell off a moving boat....whether you could swim or not...you'd try to make it to shore. survival instincts would kick in. It defies nature to NOT try to swim to the shore.

4. Yeah, Even Isis doesn't have women and children in the audience while they kill people.Southern trees bear strange fruit.
And none of that imagery is or should be about "white guilt" but just part of American history. Definitely relevant to this thread because that was all happening in America to CITIZENS. Would surely explain the fear and mistrust of law enforcement that has existed for generations among Black folks...both prosperous and poor..

@gets - I'll just make a brief response to #3 since you agree on the rest.

Didn't say that other groups didn't experience abuse and discrimination, but nevertheless none compare to the black experience in America. The group that comes second are Native Americans then the Chinese. Much of the alleged discrimination against the Irish has been exaggerated, such as the "No Irish Need Apply" signs (recent investigations found that this sign was never actually used). There were a few lynchings against Italians in American history and there was some prejudice against southern Italians when they started arriving en mass starting in the 1890s, and some anti-Mexican lynchings and discrimination. Yet whatever discrimination there was against Irish, Italians, Germans and Japanese there was, they don't compare to black Americans, Native Americans and Chinese immigrants, and of those, black Americans received the worst treatment. That was my point.

And just as a response to the White European Americans (often third and fourth generation Americans) who say "We had it just as bad as the Blacks." Um, no, you didn't. Your people came here willingly, Blacks were dragged here in fucking chains. And like I said in parentheses, it's most galling coming from a Lily White suburbanite whose family has been here since 18 fucking 90. These people need to be shot .

F1,

Stating the history of this country regarding Blacks is one thing, but I think that listing these as excuses for where a lot of Black people are TODAY is inaccurate.

I think that more than anything external, our attitudes about education have done us the most damage.Immigrants, whether they be from foreign lands or from southern parts of this country, go places seeking work..any kind of work.Ideally, they are to encourage their children to do better, learn more, and go further than they did. There's a direct correlation between cultural/ethnic/national attitudes about education and the progress of any ethnic group in America....with a few exceptions of course.The Irish, famously and smartly, rose through entering and dominating civil service and politics.

Black people who have progressed here are going to be those from families that stress education and entrepreneurship.

After the "Great Migration" of Blacks from the South, and accompanying waves of Caribbean Blacks...plenty of Blacks did what they had to do to provide for their families and encouraged their kids to take advantage of education and professional opportunities. There WERE plenty who did NOT though and generation after generation...people content to be doing the same types of things.Nothing necessarily wrong with that....BUT....when a lot of the manufacturing jobs dried up , people who hadn't been encouraged to see value in education or owning businesses were stuck.

Without formal education, vocational training, a union to protect your interests, or a business of your own....worker in this country is stuck. Big business will just hire the new immigrants and pay them a fraction of a living wage for an American worker.

You would think that the children and grandchildren of the VERY migrants who were the "new immigrants" decades ago that big business exploited, would not put themselves in such situations, but I'm not sure that this part of history is known to them.

Anyway, that's my take...was gonna add it to the great migration thread but thought it fit here.

worst holiday of the year today. maybe worst day of the year.