I can't f'n believe this. Now people have a problem with Christmas I can't wait for the next topic of debate!

MAPLEWOOD, N.J. (Dec. 7) - Members of the Columbia High School brass ensemble were not allowed to play Christmas carols at their holiday concert this year - not even instrumental versions.

At a school board meeting Monday night, parents and students alike expressed their outrage.

"This is censorship at its most basic level and political correctness to its extreme," said student Ryan Dahn.

"When you close that door you are supporting ignorance, and I think it's a very sad thing," said parent Melanie Amsterdam.

The controversy is by no means an isolated case. The role of religion during the Christmas season is a source of annual angst. But this year, people in "red," or Republican, America - particularly Christian conservatives - are in an unprecedented uproar.

They are sending letters to public schools in Chicago, where the words "Merry Christmas" have been excised from a popular song; boycotting Macy's, which has removed "Merry Christmas" signs from its department stores; and protesting the exclusion of a church group from Denver's annual Parade of Lights.

"What they don't understand is that by not wanting to offend anyone, they're excluding a huge group of people, and that is all of those of the Christian faith," said Doug Newcomb, business administrator of the Faith Bible Chapel in Arvada, Colo.

Attorney Demetrios Stratis, affiliated with the conservative civil liberties group Alliance Defense Fund, is one of 700 Christian lawyers across the country poised to pounce on such cases.

"We just don't believe that you need to stamp out religion in the public square," he said.

There are those in Maplewood - and in "blue," or Democratic, America generally - who say religion should be a private matter.

"Holiday celebrations where Christian music is being sung make people feel different," said Mark Brownstein, a Maplewood parent. "And because it is such a majority, it makes the minority feel uncomfortable."

But Eric Chabrow, who is Jewish, says his son, Sam, should be able to play Christmas songs in the high school band. Chabrow is a part of "blue" America and generally supports the separation of church and state.

"I think that people have become a little too dogmatic in their beliefs on either side," he said. "And I think in this world today, we need to look at that center. I mean, the center in this country is vanishing. And maybe that's what's happening here."

He says there must be solutions that are neither "red" nor "blue" - just common sense.

Solutions may not be forthcoming: Christian lawyers may sue the Maplewood school board, while the school superintendent is vowing not to bend to outside pressure

Source: AOL

what rock have you been living under?


This trend has been going on for years. 6 Years ago when I was in 7th grade we couldn't play christmas carols.

The rock I've been living under has been called Conservative Texas. It's not a problem here

Which is the way it should be!

What annoys me about people who don't want people playing christmas carols and all that is that they will take Christmas off of work. So in other words they take the good and want to get rid of the bad so that its great for them.

I agree with you guys. I think there is too much emphasis with being "politically correct" these days. You know that it's gotten bad when the instrumental versions of Christmas songs are being protested. It's a sad thing. If people don't want to listen to the songs, they don't have to. I really don't see how one of these songs can be offensive. In fact, that is the exact opposite of what these songs are intended for.

Well I never got to took part in my infant school (kindergarten to you guys) Xmas play. I was naughty and had to sit in class.

Serves you right, you rascal.

Mick

Got me out of wearing tights though. Just think if I had to wear them, my life could have taken another path. Could've been Queen Turi. Oh who am I kidding? Womens clothes are just a hell of a lot more comfortable, I look awesome in drag.

This is not about political correctness. It's about separation of church and state.

Maplewood High School is a public school. The school, and, presumably, their brass band, is supported by the taxpayers of Maplewood.

Having Christmas music selected for them by the faculty member in charge, practicing that Christmas music on school time and on school grounds, and playing that music at a school concert can give the impression that the "state" is putting their seal of approval on that religion and what that religion represents.

I have no problem at all with the act of playing the Christmas music. I think any non-Christian band member who would be offended by playing it, or any non-Christian parent who would be offended by listening to it, is an idiot.

What I do have a problem with is the "concept" of mixing religious symbolism and public education.

It is not "censorship", as student Ryan Dahn suggests. Censorship would be if the band decided to practice off school grounds and hold a concert off school grounds, and the school told them they couldn't, which, IMO, would be wrong.

Christmas Carols, when you get right down to it, are religious in nature. They celebrate a religious holiday. In the crass commecialism that has become our "Holiday Season", people tend to forget that Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ, who Christians believe to be the son of God and our savior.

Anything that celebrates a particular religion has no place in a public school, even if all of the students are Christians. It's a clear violation of the priciple of separation of church and state, as specified in the U.S. Constitution.

If parents want Christmas Carols, Nativity Scenes, Menorahs, and the like in their kid's school, they should send them to a parochial school.

As far as Macy's goes, that's an entirely different matter.

They are a completely private institution, and they are free to mix as much religious symbolism into their corporate identity as they wish.

And personally, I think that the groups who are pressuring Macy's to remove a "Merry Christmas" sign, although they have the right to do so, are a bit ridiculous. Macy's is exercising their right of free expression, and besides, they are doing nothing more than wishing a happy holiday to their Christian customers and employees.

If you don't like Macy's message, you are perfectly free to not shop there. And if Macy's wishes intentionally to alienate their non-Christian customers, and cater to a strictly Christian clientele (I'm not, of course, suggesting that this is the case), they have a perfect right to do so.

Removing a "Merry Christmas" sign is a foolish decision on Macy's part, I think. By doing so, they run a greater risk of offending their Christian customers, who are probably in the majority.

Besides the political motivations, what is this about? Is this about making life easier for the Jewish or Muslim child who does not celebrate Christmas? That is so stupid. How about teaching them that yes they are in the minority, but it's ok, grow up and get over it.
Plenty of children don't have fathers in their lives, but schools still make Father's Day presents on Father's Day. You know what the kids do who don't have Dads? They get over it and get on with their lives.

My daughter was in the choir her 4 years of high school. Every December they have their Christmas performances. They always sing Christmas hymns. They even have a Gospel choir. No one has ever complained.

And, yes..it is a public school.

It is not about politics, or making non-Christian children "feel better". I'm sure that they don't "feel badly" to begin with.

It's about the U.S. Constitution, and separation of church and state.

Religion does not belong in a public school.

And Father's Day is a non-religious holiday.

The same thing is happening here in Britain: Article

Which is the way it should be!

What annoys me about people who don't want people playing christmas carols and all that is that they will take Christmas off of work. So in other words they take the good and want to get rid of the bad so that its great for them. [/b][/quote]We're on the same side here. I couldn't agree with you more. This country is turning into a country of complainers. Instead of letting something not bother us, we have to press our beliefs onto others instead of just forgetting about it & now people who are religious and want to sing something as simple as Christmas carols now cannot. What the f**k is this country coming to? Is there anymore room up there in Canada?

I have to disagree with you and say that it does

Irishman, every year our local firehouse or rescue station (depends on the time of year and how busy they expect it to be) held a Hanukah party and Christmas party in the main hall of either building. The Hanukah party goes off fine no problems. My father was playing Santa Claus and I went with him (I was 14 I think) and as we are walking in people are yelling and screaming at my father and holding protests outside of the door. there were 4,5,6 year old kids there coming to see Santa and these idiots are telling the kids there is no Santa and what they are doing is violating their rights. Needless to say that is no longer a tradition in my town.

That's pitiful man. What town is that? I know this is a little off topic but I was watching a South Park episode last week I think when Cartman gets money from the toothfairy. Well, finally his mom breaks down and confesses that there isn't really a toothfairy and that she's been the one putting money under his pillow. Cartman initially laughs and says, "What are going to tell me next mom? That there's no Santa Clause, Easter Bunny, or Jesus either?"

I have to disagree with you and say that it does [/b][/quote]OK.....Which one?

All of them? There must be at least a couple of dozen or so.

And in what way?

Praying? Singing hymns? Religious displays?

Religion is a private thing, between the individual and his religion. If a person wants to "go public" with it, every religion has houses of worship where an individual is free to express himself.

The U.S. Constitution clearly calls for a separation of church and state, and for good reason. Not only to protect the people from governement intervention in their religious beliefs, but to protect the government from the influences of religion.

Be careful here; we're on the slippery slope.

If we allow religion in public schools, without giving equal time to all religions (which would get rather unwieldy, given that every other day seems to be a holiday for some group or another), then, in effect, the state is sanctioning one religion over others, which is one or two steps away from religious persecution for not belonging to the "right" religion.

I'm not saying we need to pick a certain religion to be in school, I meant that students who are religious should be, as you said, "be able to express themselves," whether through silent or public prayer, christmas carols, or however they choose. I know that in my high school guys couldn't have gotees (sp) but Jewish students were allowed to keep all of their facial hair due to their religous beliefs. So why can't religious students sing christmas carols?

This is just one more sign that the world is going to shit and we need to do anything we can to put a stop to it. I had a Jewish teacher in 5th grade and guess what? She taught us about Hanukkah and nobody complained! It wasnt a big deal! There were no protests with people screaming "You are infringing on my rite to be an Atheist". Keep in mind, this was not 30 or 40 years ago, this was 1984! What the hell is the problem with some people? What the hell happend to good old American core values? Freaks and weirdo's are crawling out of the woodwork, you cant do a damn thing anymore without someone getting offended. Want to cut that tree down on your own property? Well you cant because some endangered bug lives under it. Want to go to your kids CHRISTMAS program? You cant because it might offend that jackass that lives in a VW van in the K-Mart parking lot, you know the woman who doesnt shave her legs or armpits, smells like fishermans warf at low tide and has all the "Greenpeace" and "Save the spotted owl" stickers on her van. It's time to admit once and for all that the 60's fucked this country up and I dont see it turning around anytime soon. What did all the drugs, free love and protesting give us? Crack heads, AIDS and ultra left wing liberals who seem to care about everything but human beings. God bless Ted Nugent, Randy Weaver, Sean Hannity and George Bush, at least there is still someone to look up to in this world.

I'm laughfing
and I'm glad I don't know this woman

I tried like heck to find the words "separation of church and state" in the Constitution, but I couldn't. I did find a lot of stuff about the First Amendment and freedom of expression, etc.

I agree that "Christmas Concerts" can be exclusionary and in some cases offensive, but there has been government guidelines based on the First Amendment that offer ways and situations where religion can enter the public schools.

Some interesting facts that I came across. The U.S. Constitution is the oldest such governmental document still in effect today. And as if you didn't suspect, the U.S. is the most religiously diverse country in the world.

Here is a quote from Pres. Clinton regarding religious belief in public schools.

[QUOTE] Nothing in the First Amendment converts our public schools into religion-free zones, or requires all religious expression to be left behind at the schoolhouse door. While the government may not use schools to coerce the consciences of our students, or to convey official endorsement of religion, the public schools also may not discriminate against private religious expression during the school day.

Religion is too important in our history and our heritage for us to keep it out of our schools. It shouldn’t be demanded, but as long as it is not sponsored by school officials and doesn’t interfere with other children’s rights, it mustn’t be denied.
[QUOTE]

Also, if your interested in broadening your perspective on this issue....www.firstamendmentcenter.org

Oh, yeah......Merry Christmas

This seems to fit with the theme of this thread


December 1st

TO: ALL EMPLOYEES I'm happy to inform you that the company Christmas Party will take place on December 23rd at Luigi's Open Pit barbecue. There will be lots of spiked eggnog and a small band playing traditional carols ..feel free to sing along. And don't be surprised if our CEO shows up dressed as Santa Claus to light the Christmas tree! Exchange of gifts among employees can be done at that time; however, no gift should be over $10. Merry Christmas to you and your family.

Patty Lewis Human Resources Director

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December 2nd

TO: ALL EMPLOYEES In no way was yesterday's memo intended to exclude our Jewish employees. We recognize that Hanukkah is an important holiday that often coincides with Christmas. From now on we're calling it our "Holiday Party." The same policy applies to employees who are celebrating Kwanza at this time. There will be no Christmas tree and no Christmas carols sung. Happy Holidays to you and your family.

Patty Lewis Human Resources Director

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December 3rd

TO: ALL EMPLOYEES Regarding the anonymous note I received from a member of Alcoholics Anonymous requesting a non-drinking table, I'm happy to accommodate this request, but, don't forget, if I put a sign on the table that reads, "AA Only," you won't be anonymous anymore. In addition, forget about the gifts exchange-- no gifts will be allowed since the union members feel that $10 is too much money.

Patty Lewis Human Researchers Director

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December 7th

TO: ALL EMPLOYEES I've arranged for members of Overeaters Anonymous to sit farthest from the dessert buffet and pregnant women closest to the restrooms. Gays are allowed to sit with each other. Lesbians do not have to sit with the gay men; each will have their table. Yes, there will be a flower arrangement for the gay men's table. Happy now?

Patty Lewis Human Racehorses Director

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December 9th

TO: ALL EMPLOYEES People, people -- nothing sinister was intended by wanting our CEO to play Santa Claus! Even if the anagram of "Santa" does happen to be "Satan," there is no evil connotation to our own "little man in a red suit."

Patty Lewis Human Ratraces

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December 10th

TO: ALL EMPLOYEES Vegetarians -- I've had it with you people!! We're going to hold this party at Luigi's Open Pit whether you like it or not, you can just sit at the table farthest from the "grill of death," as you put it, and you'll get salad bar only, including hydroponic tomatoes. But, you know, tomatoes have feelings, too. They scream when you slice them. I've heard them scream. I'm hearing them right now... Ha! I hope you all have a rotten holiday! Drive drunk and die, you hear me?

The Bitch from Hell

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December 14th

TO: ALL EMPLOYEES I'm sure I speak for all of us in wishing Patty Lewis a speedy recovery from her stress-related illness. I'll continue to forward your cards to her at the sanitarium. In the meantime, management has decided to cancel our Holiday Party and give everyone the afternoon of the 23rd off with full pay.

Terri Bishop Acting Human Resources Director

That was posted last year. It's still funny.

The sad thing about that is it is supposed to be a joke but it's pretty damn close to the truth.

It sure is! I heard yesterday where one little elementary school couldn't even sing "Rudolph the Red Nosed Reindeer" because it mentions Christmas Eve.

This shit makes me sick. Totally.

There's nothing religious about celebrating a holiday that has lost most of its religious meaning to begin with! Santa Clause/St. Nick is not mentioned in the Bible at all, okay?

This holiday isn't even of Christian origin - it's of pagan decent for chrissakes! (pun intended)

It's tradition, not religion, any more. Everyone has the right to celebrate as they see fit, religously, in private or in a house of worship (as Plaw said) -- but there's nothing religious about Santa and reindeer!

These fockin' people would rather hate "Silent Night" and have it banned from all public displays but at the same time we got shit-ass offensive music blasting out of our radios! WTF is that about? No one gives a shit about that - cuz it's not religious!

I don't get offended at all at the mention or hearing of something outside of my religious beliefs. In fact, I EMBRACE IT! I WANT to know more about others' customs and beliefs. I don't want this hidden away like we should be EMBARRASSED by it! Screw that!

In God We Trust. It's written on all our money. Those who are atheist spend it anyway, haha!

People need to lighten up, cuz nothing bugs me more than political correctness JUST for the sake of it. Like there's nothing better to be concerned about?!

Oy vey.

People would be a hell of a lot more tolerant if kids were still taught what Christmas is, Hahukkah is, Kwanzaa is...! It's not being taught religion, it's being taught cultural difference. And from learning differences, we learn to appreciate differences, and become more tolerant. Nothing breeds prejudice like ignorance!

We learned about Hanukkah in school when I was a kid -- I never knew much about it -- we played with dradels in class! OMG!! How horrible!! OMG, get this: we even sang Christmas carols! Call the (thought) police!!

:rolleyes:

[/Rant]

Its shit like this why I cant respect liberalism. I dont really feel like getting into it, but you can imagine where I Stand.

Ironic, isn't it? The more liberal, the more stifling it seems! Everything is offensive to someone -- pretty soon we'll all be living alone in boxes!

But I do respect liberalism, and do agree with much of it - it's just sometimes it drives me nuts! :rolleyes:

Really?

Well then why bother having a winter break for students? Why does it have to, coincidentally, fall during both the Jewish and Catholic holiday celebrations?

Why not just give the children who celebrate these holidays off, and then the rest of the nonbelievers can have school?

I bet the teachers would LOVE that.

Give me a break. This is leftist crap at it's best. I can't say "God" or sing about Jesus being born, because it might offend someone.

Fuck off, that school can be used as a PUBLIC forum. My taxpayer dollars, which, coincidentally, go to funding that very building, and others like it, are worth just as much as an athiest.

So, and this is for all liberals, spare us this crap about how it's seperate church and state. The school isn't promoting one religion or another. It's having a damned holiday concert for the parents and members of the public who want to hear it. They aren't giving everyone some holy water and telling them to convert.

After all, Jesus is the reason for the season! Or wait, maybe he's not, I mean, you never know. I can't say Jesus.