This is hysterical!

Great last post Double-J! Keep it coming!

Can someone please tell me what the hell is going on here? Did I wake up this morning in Bizzaro land? JJ and Irish are agreeing, on a religious topic no less?

I don't think the issue is whether or not it's offensive.

I am not in the least bit offended by people praying, or religious music, or religious displays, and I don't think many people are.

I just think it belongs in a private venue.

I wonder how everyone would feel if Maplewood High School found itself with a Muslim faculty member in charge of the brass band, who wanted to put on a concert of Muslim marching music (if there is such a thing).

But why all of a sudden? Christmas carols & parades and the likes have been in schools for decades. Why is this year any different??

Does anyone besides me find it strange that Irish is supporting the CONSERVATIVE side of this argument?

But why all of a sudden? Christmas carols & parades and the likes have been in schools for decades. Why is this year any different?? [/b][/quote]That doesn't mean it was right for decades.

We had slavery for decades, women didn't have the right to vote for decades, there was segregation for decades......

But why all of a sudden? Christmas carols & parades and the likes have been in schools for decades. Why is this year any different?? [/b][/quote]That doesn't mean it was right for decades.

We had slavery for decades, women didn't have the right to vote for decades, there was segregation for decades...... [/b][/quote]That's irrelevant to the issue. I don't think that Muslims, as you mentioned, should have the right to oppose something that is American as apple pie - christmas parades, parties, and concerts, if it isn't infringing on their right to practice their religion (which it clearly isn't). If a muslim teacher wanted to have a "muslim" christmas concert (strange, since I don't know of too many muslim music teachers, let alone ones who celebrate christmas...I thought they celebrated Ramadan, and that was one or two months ago), then that's his and the districts business. However, the taxpayers decide what is right in the district. And not the minority.

I don't find it a coincidence that our society, as we have moved away from morality, and yes, religion, we have degraded to the point we have reached now. It's sad when we can't have a christmas concert, supported by the majority, because one person who doesn't like it, the minority, disagrees.


Why? Do tax dollars not come from people who are religious? Why should, by default, the agnostic or athiest people have the final say over whether we can have "Christmas" or not? And in public? Please.

We have tax dollars that support a bible club at schools, is that wrong? Our tax dollars support all other activites, ethnic clubs, gay/lesbian clubs, etc.

Yet probably the least threatening thing, a CHRISTMAS CONCERT, an innocent concert where people can come and hear old fashioned songs (regardless of their content), is now brought to this point. It's as if God is some kind of dirty word. It's ridiculous.

Forgive me for thinking it's a tad hypocritical to say we have to have clubs for blacks and for gays in schools, but to have a Christmas concert, a tradition that has probably been a part of schools and even longer with battle hymns and such.

When I was in the school chorus during high school, I didn't tweak because my conductor was a hook. I didn't find it offensive if we sang a jewish song or something.

Pretty soon they will outlaw the public display of Christmas lights and nativity scenes in your front yard. Then you will have to buy your Christmas tree from some shady guy in an alley. :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

He'll probably be of some ethnic-minority descent. :p

True it might not have been right but again, why is this year so different? What happened in these last 365 days that hadn't happened for decades? Also, your examples of slavery & womens rights are extremes. I don't think singing christmas carols is nearly as extreme as either of these.

PS-Nice Guy Eddie, why are you so surprised? If I had to "classify" myself, I'd probably say I'm a Conservative Republican (but I hate Bush and on issues I go with how I feel on them, not how a particular party feels about them)

When they do, I'll be the first one on line to fight for people's rights to do what they wish on their private property.

And what they choose to display can be as inoffensive to me as Christmas lights, or as offensive to me as a statue comemmorating the good deeds of Adolf Hitler.

it doesn't matter. It's their property.

But I'll say it again: Religious displays do not belong in government facilities.

I think that'd be AWESOME! Too bad I (apparently) stand alone; the world would be a better place. :p

Pick apart my entire post, please; or are you avoiding it cuz I'm right? :p

Here 'ya go..... The fact that it has lost it's religious meaning does not detract from the fact that Christmas is still a religious holiday which is not celebrated by non-Christians.

Exactly. Celebrate as they see fit in private or a house of worship. Reindeer are OK. They're non-sectarian. Santa, though, represents Christmas.

The difference is that people have the freedom to listen to whatever music they choose to on their radio. It's different when someone walks into the Department of Motor Vehicles because they have to and get bombarded with Christmas music.

As far as the "blaring" of offensive music from radios goes, most municipalities have ordinances against excessive "blaring", because such noise interefers with the peace and tranquility of others. And I support such ordinances.

So do I. But there's a huge difference between learning about other religions in an academic sense and what we're talking about here.

Because they have no choice. And the words themselves do not promote one specific religion over another. All religions, I think, have their "God".

Again, this is not about being politically correct. It's about the government's "promotion", if you will, of Christianity.

Not much i can say about that.

I agree. Nothing wrong, as I said above, with learning about other religions. But that's not the issue here.

I don't think kids should be singing Christmas Carols in public schools.

And it's dreidel, BTW. :p

Just "saving" this for tomorrow, when I reply to this... :p

Haha - I caught it before you fixed it!

As I've explained in the past to FS......There's a difference between a typo and a spelling error.

Gimme a break.....I'm sitting here in the dark.

Turn a light on -- it's called humor. :p

And, I looked the word up. It just so happened that so many people misspelled it, I assumed it was correct!

Normally my natural sympathies would lie with plaw on issues but I'm leaning towards the Don and the other guys on this one. To me Christmas while it has its roots in religion is not a religious holiday anymore. St Patrick's Day has its roots in religion, the coming of Christianity to Ireland, but these days it's just a celebration of Irishness (i.e. an excuse to get rat assed!).

In American terms I would probably be classed as a liberal (and happy to be so), but really, people who manage to get offended by Christmas trees and carol singing don't do anything to defend or promote liberal values...in fact they probably need to get out more. They are as narrow minded and reactionary as the most fundamental conservative (yes, you Double J )

Plaw's main point is about the promotion of one particular set of religious values and beliefs over another (or all others) in state funded schools. On this I am broadly in agreement with him. If you want faith based education for your kids send them to a faith school. However I cannot see that the playing of Christmas melodies nor the hanging of lights or a tree promotes Christianity over Judaism, Islam or Voodoo for that matter.

The issue is for some of the people complaining about Xmas symbols, "Do I see something that offends me" or "Do I decide I'm going to get offended and then look for something that fits the bill"

700 posts...congrats Senza Mama

I'm starting to feel like the "Broken Record" that JG accused me of being.

I cannot speak for others with respect to their reasons, but for me.....

It is not about being offended by Christmas displays, decorations, music, etc. in government facilities.

It's about the idea that such things do not belong in government buildings, since it may give the appearance that a particular religion is being sanctioned or promoted by the government.

And, yes. Christmas has become, sadly, a "non-religious" holiday to a certain extent.

I have no problem with a wreath that symbolizes the "Holiday Season", but I do object to a nativity scene, because it is a religious decoration, not a holiday "seasonal" one.

And Rudolf The Red Nosed Reindeer is about as non-religious a song as you can find, and I have no problem with it.

But making kids in a public school glee club or choir or band sing or play songs like Silent Night or Little Drummer Boy, which are clearly religious in nature, is another matter.

Again, in case anyone missed my POV, looking at a nativity scene or listening to relgious Christmas music in no way offends me.

But this religious stuff doesn't belong in government facilities because it gives the appearance that, whatever the religion involved, it is being promoted by the government.

Slightly off topic - I don't know if you saw this in any of the news. Apparently, Madame Tussaud's Wax Museum in London has done a nativity scene with some unlikely figures. Here's a portion of a newspaper article with a picture:

(from CNN.com) -

LONDON, England (Reuters) -- Church leaders united on Wednesday to condemn a Christmas Nativity tableau depicting soccer star David Beckham as Joseph and his pop singer wife Victoria as the Virgin Mary.

Anglicans, Catholics and Presbyterians called the exhibit at Madame Tussaud's waxwork museum in London a new low in the cult of celebrity worship.

In the tableau, Australian pop star Kylie Minogue hovers above the crib as an angel while "Posh Spice" Victoria lays her shawled head tenderly on Beckham's shoulder.

Tony Blair, George W. Bush and the Duke of Edinburgh star as The Three Wise Men. The shepherds are played by Hollywood star Samuel L. Jackson, British actor Hugh Grant and camp Irish comedian Graham Norton.

The Vatican was not amused.

As a practicing Catholic, I agree with our esteemed plaw....and I might add - religious displays being funded by taxpayer dollars isn't right either. I might condone it if the ENTIRE town was one religion.

In the words of Silent Night, "sleep in heavenly peace."

Wow!! Some good points here. I don't know why though some imply that liberals don't have a religious faith, or at the least, surprised that there are liberals who do practice a faith and don't object to Christmas displays in public places.

I don't believe in anyone shoving their beliefs down anyone's throat, but I see no harm or wrong doing in seeing religious symbols, or saying "under God" in the pledge, or having school plays celebrating the holiday. I understand that there are those who do not practice or believe in any faith, but I don't see where this is trampling on any of their rights. Then again, all of us are so used to it, and lived most our lives without anyone objecting to it.

We have Christmas plays/concerts at our school. No one is forced to go, and I am sure if a student objected to participating and honestly didn't hold a faith, they'd be permitted not to particpate. My personal opinion is, if it were any other faith than Christianity, and people objected, they'd be considered prejudice. But that's my opinion.

TIS

While not in the constitution itself, one of the writers of the document, Thomas Jefferson, wrote as an explanation of his intent:

"I contemplate with solemn reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between Church and State."

The intent of the law was to protect religions from becoming a national religion, like the Church of England, and to prevent persecution for observing a different religion.

That being said, I don't really have a problem with not playing religious Christmas carols at the concert. If I want to hear religious music, I'll go to church. Both my sons were in our high school's music program and when it came to their holiday concerts they would play songs like "Winter Wonderland" and "Let it Snow". Occasionally they would play a religious song, but the director explained that, for the most part, Christmas carols are very simple songs and not very challenging to play. Since music is an academic class, the music they chose to play was a lot more complex and challenging.

This is somewhat off-track, however there are a couple teachers at our school of Jewish faith. What is the proper thing to say to them during a Jewish Holiday? I hear people say "Happy Hannukuh (sp?). I assume that's correct. Is happy Yom Kipper (again sp???) the approriate thing to say? I never know, and don't even know what the holiday signifies. I want to wish them a greeting, but usually refrain for fear of saying "Happy" something when it's not appropriate.

Thanks

TIS

I would like to know where the hell you people came from? Where were all these weirdo's 40 or 50 years ago who are "offended" by every little thing that someone does? I feel like a big problem is that alot of you people have way to much free time. Worry about something that matters. :rolleyes: I must have been born 50 years to late. That liberal Tom Brokaw got at least one thing correct, the people born in the late teens and early twentys were "The Greatest Generation" it's been all down hill since then. Those people went to war and defended freedom in Europe and the Pacific and banded together and sacrificed at home to make sure our soldiers had what they needed to do the job. I would hate to think what would would happen today if we had a war on a much larger scale.

Being a completely non-practicing member of the faith, I could be wrong here, and if so I'm sure someone will correct me, but to my way of thinking.....

The only holiday on which it would be appropriate to wish a Jewish person a "Happy" would be Rosh Hashanah, the Jewish New Year. But I don't think any American Jews would be even the slightest bit offended if their gentile friends or associates failed to give them a Jewish New Year's greeting.

With respect to Hanukkah, or Hanukah, or Chanukah (all three spellings are acceptable), this is a holiday which celebrates the victory of the Maccabees over the Syrians (who I think were a Jewish tribe who had been enslaved by the Syrians at the time) in 165 B.C., and the rededication of the Temple at Jerusalem (Don't ask me -- I got that straight from the dictionary. You now know pretty much as much about it as I do).

It is traditional for adults to give children presents, and since it usually falls somewhere around Christmas, it all works out rather neatly I think.

While an adult would wish a child a "Happy Chanukah" when giving him or her a gift, I have seldom heard adults wish each other a greeting, and again, I don't think a Jew would expect such a greeting from a gentile.

As far as Yom Kippur goes, that is the "Day of Atonement", on which practicing Jews fast all day to atone for their sins of the previous year.

Because of the holiday's solemnity, any type of holiday greeting in this case would be quite inappropriate.

Interesting. I've said "Happy Chanukah" on occasion to my Jewish neighbors. Commercially, the "Happy Chanukah" and "Merry Christmas" seem to go hand in hand in stores and on various advertisements. I guess it's not too inappropriate or some group would be making a big stink.

How about Happy Ramadan? Is that appropriate?

In the big scheme of Jewish Holidays, Chanukah has, I think, taken on a much greater importance than the event that it actually celebrates. It's primarily celebrated, and looked forward to, mostly by children.

This is due, I'd guess, to the gift giving and it's proximity to Christmas.

The "Happy Chanukah" greetings that you see in stores and advertisements are there strictly to get people into the gift giving (and, necessairily, gift buying) frame of mind.

You never see Purim (which is a holiday that, in its historical context is as important, I think, as Chanukah) greetings, for example, because there is no gift buying involved.

I think it is kind of naive to think that the country wouldn't band together and do what was needed to defeat an enemy that was threatening our safety and freedom. The fact of the matter is, there has been no such conflict since WW2 so any inference of American citizens "going downhill" since then is a guess at best.