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I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
#838169
04/18/15 01:19 AM
04/18/15 01:19 AM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 54 Phoenix, Arizona
Walkner
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Phoenix, Arizona
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It amazes me how much of a failure Gotti was. He was a degenerate gambler, greedy, no common sense, drew too much attention to himself. The worst boss of all time. He didn't seem like someone who was qualified to be a skipper, much less a boss.
He was a broke until he became a boss. They said in the book he made a comment on how he was in disbelief about these construction extortion kickbacks he was getting, and how he had never had money like that before. How he ever got into that position blows me away.
Chin made him look like an amature, the way they ran their shows was like night and day.
Its interesting that another bad Boss was Amuso and Casso(i consider them both the boss of their family). Probably the 2nd worst boss run behind Gotti. Whats worse as they were both running their respective families at the same time.
These 3 guys, and the damage they did to their families, was much worse than even the original commision case for the mob. They set their families back years.
To me, the most qualified person to run a crime family would be someone that is not really violent, but respected. Someone who specializes in white collar crimes. If someone makes a living money from violence, robbery, or drug dealing, they don't seem like someone who would be sophisticated enough to run a crime family.
Just some observations from the book.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Walkner]
#838173
04/18/15 02:51 AM
04/18/15 02:51 AM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,499 naples,italy
furio_from_naples
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,499
naples,italy
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I think the same things,walkner about gotti and casso and amuso; These 3 sociopths was lucky: Gotti was the protege of Dellacroce and Amuso of chickie Funari. After the Commission Trial all the old and respected bosses went to jail,so rise the yong and violent new bosses. Fortunatly for the gambinos and the luccheses,Cefalù was a old school mobster and Crea was well respected and low key.
For me the worst boss ever was Nicky Scarfo in the 1981 the philly family was little but efficent,has about 8 capos ruled on philly and atlantic city,after scarfo in 1989,two capos and the underboss flips and until Ligambi in the 2001 there was 30 years of war.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Walkner]
#838203
04/18/15 09:28 AM
04/18/15 09:28 AM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021 far, northwest
Binnie_Coll
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021
far, northwest
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It amazes me how much of a failure Gotti was. He was a degenerate gambler, greedy, no common sense, drew too much attention to himself. The worst boss of all time. He didn't seem like someone who was qualified to be a skipper, much less a boss.
He was a broke until he became a boss. They said in the book he made a comment on how he was in disbelief about these construction extortion kickbacks he was getting, and how he had never had money like that before. How he ever got into that position blows me away.
Chin made him look like an amature, the way they ran their shows was like night and day.
Its interesting that another bad Boss was Amuso and Casso(i consider them both the boss of their family). Probably the 2nd worst boss run behind Gotti. Whats worse as they were both running their respective families at the same time.
These 3 guys, and the damage they did to their families, was much worse than even the original commision case for the mob. They set their families back years.
To me, the most qualified person to run a crime family would be someone that is not really violent, but respected. Someone who specializes in white collar crimes. If someone makes a living money from violence, robbery, or drug dealing, they don't seem like someone who would be sophisticated enough to run a crime family.
Just some observations from the book. my opinion exactly, and the worst thing the idiot ever did was to make his son the boss of the gambinos, the gottis were morons,
" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Walkner]
#838257
04/18/15 06:53 PM
04/18/15 06:53 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,697 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,697
AZ
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It amazes me how much of a failure Gotti was. He was a degenerate gambler, greedy, no common sense, drew too much attention to himself. The worst boss of all time. He didn't seem like someone who was qualified to be a skipper, much less a boss.
Everything you said is true. Even Gotti's most daring move--the assassination of Castellano and Bilotti, using shooters wearing identical hats and coats, and using identical weapons, to avoid positive identification--was planned and orchestrated by Frankie DiCicco.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Turnbull]
#838261
04/18/15 08:22 PM
04/18/15 08:22 PM
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 840
BarrettM
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 840
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Calling daily meetings to draw attention/boost his ego. And then when one of the soldiers takes a righteous stand and decides not to show one time he has them killed. That's how Thomas DeBrizzi got it. What a sick game.
Carmine Fatico was the best boss of the Bergin Crew. From the Mangano days on Fatico's crew brought in 30 million a year (supposedly) and not a peep of attention until the 70's. Big difference. Gotti wasn't a "bad" boss in the sense he didn't run the family's finances in to the ground and let the rackets dry up for an entire decade (looking at you Frank DeSimone) but in my opinion he's a great example of the "the Peter Principle", best exemplied by Michael Scott in the Office. In other words, promoted way past his potential success level.
Gotti was not one of the worst bosses because like I said he was smart enough not to try to fixed a business model that already brought in a lot of cash. But he wanted to be a king and not a godfather.
Last edited by BarrettM; 04/18/15 08:24 PM.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Walkner]
#838265
04/19/15 12:56 AM
04/19/15 12:56 AM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 54 Phoenix, Arizona
Walkner
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I was born in 1985, so I have no clue of how well known the details of the comission case. The book stated that Gotti was taped in the aparment above a social club and in an Ally behind the same club.
My question is, how well known was it that the Feds bugged cars, and intimate places of the bosses that were tried in that case. I know they mentioned that the car bugging was released in the paper. But what about the bugging of like Castellano's house, the resturant table the Colombos frequented, and the bugging of Fat Tony's club?
Was that stuff all covered at the time, in the papers and stuff? Seems like it makes him even worse if he couldn't adapt to the times, and talk business in random locations. Instead he had everyone come to him at the same place, and he talked his business in the same places(ally, apartment)of that same place.
You would think, if the guy had an ounce of common sense he would of switched it up and went to a mall, or a crowded place where he could walk and talk and he would only really have to worry if one of his goons was wearing a wire.
It seems the bosses now days have adapted to the times.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Turnbull]
#838448
04/20/15 07:36 PM
04/20/15 07:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 23
billymari
Wiseguy
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Wiseguy
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 23
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The bugging of Tony Corallo's car was a case of sheer luck, in my opinion. The car was constantly guarded and was in safe places the majority of times. However, when the F.B.I decided to try to bug the car, they had to figure out how to disassemble the dashboard, put the bug in, and put everything back the correct way (and do it in record time, because had the mob guys caught anyone tampering with the car, they would have likely have been killed). On the night the F.B.I did all that, there was a huge storm and the guys watching Tony's car (he was in a meeting) went inside to stay dry. Not only did the F.B.I have to bug the car correctly, they had to cover everything with plastic in order to prevent water from leaking in, because Carallo would have knew something was up.
As for the apartment Gotti used to conduct meetings, he probably assumed that the F.B.I would never bug a civilian's home. Well, we all know that ain't the case.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Walkner]
#838829
04/24/15 11:55 AM
04/24/15 11:55 AM
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,788
Dwalin2011
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 1,788
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Has anyone read the 1983 book "The Mob" by Virgil Peterson? A very big book, also focused on the New York organized crime, very detailed, especially about Tammany Hall and political corruption, also in pre-mafia times, like the "Tweed ring" in the 1850s; also talks about less known big players in the underworld like Frank Erickson, Harry Gross, Henry Miro, Wilfred Brunder, and has an entire chapter on the waterfront hearings and investigations; most books only mention briefly "Cockeye" Dunn and Joe Ryan without examining the subject in details.
I mean, it's another great work about the New York organized crime, like Raab's "Five Families".
However, the author of "The Mob" tries to make a point which I am not sure is correct: he says the Cosa Nostra influence on national organized crime is overestimated, it allegedly never was the absolute dominant force, and also says Valachi's testimony is reliable only when pertaining to New York matters.
Willie Marfeo to Henry Tameleo:
1) "You people want a loaf of bread and you throw the crumbs back. Well, fuck you. I ain't closing down."
2) "Get out of here, old man. Go tell Raymond to go shit in his hat. We're not giving you anything."
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Walkner]
#838876
04/24/15 03:41 PM
04/24/15 03:41 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
SinatraClub
Underboss
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Valachi's knowledge was mostly limited to NY. When asked about other families such as the Outfit, Detroit, Philly, Florida, etc. he either embellished or told his handlers he didn't know. In fact, it's now become known that his knowledge for the most part was only limited to the Luciano/Genovese family. And he only had general knowledge of the other families, like who the bosses were. He didn't know what the other families were involved in, or who had got moved up and who didn't and who were the Capo's and soldiers, etc. The feds actually fed him information during their debriefings of him to make him more credible.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: SinatraClub]
#838883
04/24/15 04:42 PM
04/24/15 04:42 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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Valachi's knowledge was mostly limited to NY. When asked about other families such as the Outfit, Detroit, Philly, Florida, etc. he either embellished or told his handlers he didn't know. In fact, it's now become known that his knowledge for the most part was only limited to the Luciano/Genovese family. And he only had general knowledge of the other families, like who the bosses were. He didn't know what the other families were involved in, or who had got moved up and who didn't and who were the Capo's and soldiers, etc. The feds actually fed him information during their debriefings of him to make him more credible. Great point, Sinatra. I say his often about some of the bullshitters we get on these sites and their "inside information." The easiest way for these clowns to give themselves away is to start claiming that they know what's going on from New York to Chicago to Detroit to Las Vegas to California. Because for 99 percent of street guys, their knowledge is confined to their own domains and neighborhoods. And with the assimilation of Italian Americans, and the dwindling of Italian neighborhoods, it's even truer today than it was back then. Go ask a captain in one of the Five Families if he knows what's going on in Cleveland or Detroit (assuming that you knew one and could ask him that type of question). He'll look at you like you have two heads.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: billymari]
#839080
04/25/15 05:37 PM
04/25/15 05:37 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,697 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,697
AZ
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As for the apartment Gotti used to conduct meetings, he probably assumed that the F.B.I would never bug a civilian's home. Well, we all know that ain't the case.
He should have known better. If he knew or suspected that the Ravenite was bugged, he should have been wary of talking in that apartment, which was right upstairs--especially since it was rented to the widow of a Gambino soldier whose name logically would be known to the cops. Worse, he really didn't conduct much business there (he did on his walk/talks). The transcripts of the bugs show he used the place to brag and swagger ("I'll sever his MF head..." "I killed him because he didn't come in when I called...")
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Turnbull]
#839088
04/25/15 06:31 PM
04/25/15 06:31 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
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As for the apartment Gotti used to conduct meetings, he probably assumed that the F.B.I would never bug a civilian's home. Well, we all know that ain't the case.
He should have known better. If he knew or suspected that the Ravenite was bugged, he should have been wary of talking in that apartment, which was right upstairs--especially since it was rented to the widow of a Gambino soldier whose name logically would be known to the cops. Worse, he really didn't conduct much business there (he did on his walk/talks). The transcripts of the bugs show he used the place to brag and swagger ("I'll sever his MF head..." "I killed him because he didn't come in when I called...") And it wasn't just any civilian's apartment. The old lady's husband was a Gambino associate and the caretaker at the Ravenite since forever. He was only dead for a little over a year or two when they planted the bug. This is a guy (Mikey Cirelli) who chased detectives out of the club with a baseball bat years earlier when he caught them bugging the place. I'm sure that little bit of irony played no small part in the Feds decision to bug that apartment. The Feds have nothing but money and time. And they never forget anything. Bugging that particular apartment was a double victory for them. They're very spiteful like that.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: pmac]
#839098
04/25/15 08:11 PM
04/25/15 08:11 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 54 Phoenix, Arizona
Walkner
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Great book seen a interview hes writing a sequel. The book on Massimo by destefano is great for a modern day book. Really? Two things I want to see, him go deeper into the 1970's. I find that decade interesting. Particularly the late 70's after Gambino died. It seemed like a chaotic time, with the books opening, and all the guys that were made that become historic infamous guys, the amount of guys getting clipped(Paul Castellano in particular seemed ruthless). It also seemed like a high point too. The feds and police still hadn't gotten their shit together it seemed, and the mob was incredibly powerful. Also, I would like to read more about whats going on now. I found it interesting in 5 families, when he touched on some of the scams they are using now. Like phone cards, and health insurance fraud. It's just interesting the elaborate schemes these guys come up with to get money. I am not sure how much info he can give, seems like they have moved way under ground. But it would be nice to read about.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Walkner]
#839193
04/26/15 01:00 PM
04/26/15 01:00 PM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021 far, northwest
Binnie_Coll
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021
far, northwest
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Great book seen a interview hes writing a sequel. The book on Massimo by destefano is great for a modern day book. Really? Two things I want to see, him go deeper into the 1970's. I find that decade interesting. Particularly the late 70's after Gambino died. It seemed like a chaotic time, with the books opening, and all the guys that were made that become historic infamous guys, the amount of guys getting clipped(Paul Castellano in particular seemed ruthless). It also seemed like a high point too. The feds and police still hadn't gotten their shit together it seemed, and the mob was incredibly powerful. Also, I would like to read more about whats going on now. I found it interesting in 5 families, when he touched on some of the scams they are using now. Like phone cards, and health insurance fraud. It's just interesting the elaborate schemes these guys come up with to get money. I am not sure how much info he can give, seems like they have moved way under ground. But it would be nice to read about. what surprised me the most about 5 families is when raab went into the gas scams that some families were into. I was amazed at how much money they were making on these gas ripoffs, in the tens of millions.
" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Binnie_Coll]
#839196
04/26/15 01:06 PM
04/26/15 01:06 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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I was amazed at how much money they were making on these gas ripoffs, in the tens of millions. If the wiseguys can steal that much in a gasoline racket, how much do you think the Government makes? Why else would we give two shits what goes on in the Middle East? Call me crazy.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: pizzaboy]
#839199
04/26/15 01:11 PM
04/26/15 01:11 PM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021 far, northwest
Binnie_Coll
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021
far, northwest
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I was amazed at how much money they were making on these gas ripoffs, in the tens of millions. If the wiseguys can steal that much in a gasoline racket, how much do you think the Government makes? Why else would we give two shits what goes on in the Middle East? Call me crazy. sounds right. not crazy.
" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: SinatraClub]
#839200
04/26/15 01:22 PM
04/26/15 01:22 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 494 N.E. Philly/Florida
PhillyMob
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 494
N.E. Philly/Florida
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Valachi's knowledge was mostly limited to NY. When asked about other families such as the Outfit, Detroit, Philly, Florida, etc. he either embellished or told his handlers he didn't know. In fact, it's now become known that his knowledge for the most part was only limited to the Luciano/Genovese family. And he only had general knowledge of the other families, like who the bosses were. He didn't know what the other families were involved in, or who had got moved up and who didn't and who were the Capo's and soldiers, etc. The feds actually fed him information during their debriefings of him to make him more credible. That's true Sinatra. I believe they got some information from Scarpa at that time and credit went to valachi with all the charts and everything they had at the hearings
"My uncle(Nicky Scarfo) always told me, you have to use your brains in this thing, and you always have to use the gun." -"crazy" Phil Leonetti-
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Re: I read 5 families for the 2nd time.
[Re: Walkner]
#839202
04/26/15 01:24 PM
04/26/15 01:24 PM
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Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 494 N.E. Philly/Florida
PhillyMob
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 494
N.E. Philly/Florida
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By the way 5 families was one of my favorites. Very good informative book. 2 thumbs up.
"My uncle(Nicky Scarfo) always told me, you have to use your brains in this thing, and you always have to use the gun." -"crazy" Phil Leonetti-
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