Very simple at the height of each other's power who was A- Making the most money. B- Exerted more influence over all of LCN. C- Overall the most powerful boss.

Simply put I don't think there was any boss more powerful than Luciano. He had all of the future bosses in his pocket that he was able to control and lead big egos and violent bosses. Carlo's intelligence and cunning I feel like where unmatched but he didn't have the power to do what Luciano was able to do which is why I believe Luciano was the most powerful.

I am always confused as to why people assume Lucky was the most powerful boss of his time. Influential yes but most powerful?
Im saying no...

In fact, I think Carlo's influence while not exactly overstated, people underestimate the power of Luchesse at this time...

Carlo Gambino died in his own bed in the country of his choosing. Furthermore, to say that Luciano controlled the future bosses is ridiculous. He couldn't even prevent the Costello-Genovese clusterfuck from happening, and that was within his own family. It's an unfair comparison anyway. They were close enough in age, but Gambino didn't attain the lion's share of his power until years after Luciano got jailed and then deported.

That said, I think the Luciano/Costello/Lansky triumvirate was the most intelligent in the history of organized crime. Without their vision, the Italian-American Mafia wouldn't have seen a second generation, let alone last a hundred years.

Why is it ridiculous? He controlled Genovese, Joe Adonis, Anastasia, Costello, Gambino and convinced Profachi and Bonanno to switch sides.

He couldn't control the Genovese, Costello problem because he was already deported to Italy by that time and not to mention in prison before that. It wasn't like he was able to keep his ear to the street or really take the reins anymore. Plus the Jewish gangsters which he could count on because of Lansky and Siegel dried up and heavy hitters like Adonis got deported and Moretti terminally ill. Anastasia's erratic behavior could have been controlled as Luciano was the only man to really be able to do this.

And the question was at their peak's who was more successful as a boss. So Probably for Gambino say 1960-1976. Luciano for 1931-1936. So while Carlo ruled a lot longer. I think for what Luciano was able to accomplish gives him the edge.

No one went against Lucky when he was making his rise and those that did didn't last much longer.

My thing is he seems to get way too much credit.Like did Lucky come up with the commision idea? Or was it an extension of the 7 Group idea proposed by Johnny Torrio to cut down the bootlegging competition? I read a book on sicily, and nicola gentile said something to the effect of the idea of a commision actually being unoriginal.How powerful was Luciano getting 50 years state time for prostitution, something sowed up in chicago during the colosimo days? i also think its a little naive to say Lucky controlled these guys, more like they listened to him because HE WASNT TRYING TO RUN EVERYTHING like a genovese.

Also to the point, these guys had no reason to go against Lucky cause he wasnt tryna WAR WITH THEM, or take over their businesses. Also, the commision really was always the chicago outfit and the luciano family/lansky click. There is a mary ferrell document where Tommy Ryan mentions this, that they and chicago were always of one mind. THIS was actually the main strength and ally of the luciano family on the commision, this kept the others in check. Consider this, Profaci had kids married into both the bonnano and zerilli families, bonnano is cousins with maggadino,and all these guys are close to Gagliano and Magano. Thats a hell of a power block, now Luciano is close to the underbosses at this time like anastasia and luchesse but these guys arnt bosses yet. Its the chicago connection thats the biggest source of strength, they are eventually partners in the race wire, hollywood, vegas, havannah,teamsters,slots,jukes, all the biggest rackets...

That said, I think the Luciano/Costello/Lansky triumvirate was the most intelligent in the history of organized crime. Without their vision, the Italian-American Mafia wouldn't have seen a second generation, let alone last a hundred years.

There is your "Making of the Mob" series in a nutshell...without those 3 there is no mob today.

I tend to go for Carlo, for the simple reason of being in power for 20 years as opposed to Luciano's five years. Carlo also had close ties with the major Sicillian bosses with whom he had set up a vast international heroin pipeline. Luciano basically exploited the power structure that was set up by others before him. One thing is for sure though, both are among the most interesting and legendary Mafia figures in history, along with Morello, Maranzano and Bonanno.

It's a tough call, as Carlo has the edge in longevity and Luciano has the edge in vision and the right allies.

Carlo probably exercised more power than Charlie though. He had Eboli whacked, possibly helped setup Genovese, had Bonanno banished, instigated the Gallo-Profaci War and probably had Colombo hit, which essentially led to Gallo getting hit, and starting another civil war in that family, none of which that family has ever really recovered from.

I have always been of the opinion that Luciano's power stemmed more from his alliances with the Jewish Rothstein and the Irish Dwyer and Madden. His influence within those organizations, which, through the first half of Prohibition, were the dominant mobs in NY. Lucky using his contacts in these groups while working for Masseria are what made Masseria the 'most powerful' boss in the city after the other groups started imploding. But, imo, Masseria's power in that latter years of Prohibition stemmed directly from the influence Luciano and his boys provided. Masseria became the most powerful boss because he had Luciano.

That's just my opinion, still trying to find the right info to back it up.

The Genovese family controlled New York and New York controlled the whole country. Without a doubt it helped that Chicago sided with Genovese on most if not all commission issues. But you have to think that the Genovese family controlled the commission until Gambino became boss, this was as a direct result of Luciano being boss when HE formed the commission.

Sure it was easier for Luciano to get them to fall in line than to go to war with them but the fact that he was able to take out bosses Maranzano and Masseria and then have the charisma to get egos like Anastasia and Genovese to fall in line speaks volumes in my opinion. I'm not denying he didn't have help but he was the one to actually put it all together.He might not of had the idea but he knew how to implement it and get everyone else to go along.

Depends on how you define "power." Luciano was very influential: he ended the era of the Moustache Petes by arranging for the assassinations of Masseria and Maranzano; set up the Commission, and invited help and counsel from non-Sicilians and even non-Italians. He was really the first modern American Don. But, his reign was short: convicted in 1936, given a double-digit sentence, served 10 years, and was deported, never achieving the same influence again.

Gambino served as Don of the biggest Mafia family for far longer, achieved more wealth than Luciano ever dreamed of, never served a day in prison after he became Don, and, as PB said, died in his own bed--in itself, a significant achievement for any Mafioso. Unlike Luciano, he was relentlessly low-profile, and his influence was often felt, seldom seen. My nod goes to him.

Originally I would have said Lucky, but taking in to account the two lengths of their rule, Gambino's twenty years is truly an achievement. But again no one dared challenge Luciano whereas Gambino while always emerging victorious had to deal with the Bonanno war whom could have won if not for a heart attack and thus his retirement to AZ, the Colombo fiasco where again if not for Profachi's death and Magliocco being the only one left giving up could have ended different. It just seemed for the short time Lucky was boss, his will was unchallenged and there was peace throughout the mob. Even Anastasia who was itching to take out Mangano for years waited until Lucky was deported. For simplifying things, say

Lucky in 1935 right before his imprisionment. and Carlo in 1975 right before his death

Luciano survived the Castellamarese War and cane out on top. He was sentenced to 50 years and got out after 11. He took on the two most powerful bosses in the country and they both ended up dead.

Gambino was definitely not the most powerful boss in the country until later in his rule.

To say the "Genovese Family" controlled New York to me is a little naive.First, during the Luciano era, in order for the Genovese and Luchesse families to become what they are today a few things had to happen first.First Dutch Schutlz had to die and they absorb his Bronx and Harlem rackets. Then Louis Lepke had to die and they absorbed his Harlem and Garment center rackets. Then Longy Zwillman had to die so they could absorb the jersey rackets. Those three guys were as powerful as anyone in CN. I say Gambino was hands down more powerful for no other reason that he really pursued power. The Genovese Family was always the most americanized, hence more businessmen more business focused.After Luciano was sent away, Costello spent more time worring about his own interest and trying to fit in with high society. Lansky is off making Cuba deals and whatnot, Bugsy went Hollywood. During this time i really believe its the profaci bonnano power that is really running the commision. I dont think its any coincidence Carlo spent so much time using the commision authority to weaken profaci and bonnano...

Titles arnt always indicative of power. Consider Costello; Boss of supposedly the most powerful family, yet in order to neutralize a capo in his own family (Genovese)he has to okay a hit on a Boss (Mangano) because he needs Anastasia's MUSCLE?

Dutch Schultz died because he went against the commission in wanting to kill dewey, Luciano had a hand in giving that order. Lepke died in Sing Sing because after being hidden by Albert (which I'm sure Luciano knew about) for like 2 years, Luciano gives the order for him to surrender and he got a special deal with the prosecutor which obviously is bullshit but Luciano had a hand in making that happen. Bugsy was sent to California by Luciano/Lansky syndicate. Profaci and Bonanno had no relationship with Murder Inc. and no relationship with the Jewish Gangsters that were still relevant during those times.

This is true but a lot changed for Costello during that time. Moretti who was his main muscle was losing his health, Adonis who had an army with him as well was deported as well as Luciano not to mention all the Jewish Murder Inc. guys dried up so Costello's only real remaining muscle was Albert especially because Costello was never a big time street guy I don't think he connected with the rank and file button guys who were the killers as Genovese would have by being a Capo but also by having it in his pocket that he once was underboss it could be more convincing then by saying I should be boss "just cause" a la Gotti

Zwillman didn't die until the 50s, so taking over his rackets ha nothing to do with Luciano himself

What follows is my opinion. I don't purport to have the last word in this debate.



We can hardly know who was making the most money.

Carlo Gambino was more like the boss of bosses....of New York City. He ruled the 5 families more than all of American Cosa Nostra.

Lucky Luciano on the other hand had nationwide alliances, but not just that, he and his clique told the rest, nationwide, how to sort out their affairs. Carlo never did that. Carlo was simply well positioned in an already existing order set up by someone else.

Overall which was more powerful?

I think Luciano. Why?

Carlo Gambino's power may have stemmed from his blood relations to the Sicilian trans-Atlantic mafia clans, the Gambinos, Spatollas, the Inzerillos, and the DiMaggios. He might have also had some high level contact in US government somewhere.

Lucky Luciano on the other hand had the same Sicilian mafia clan backing (the Cupola), backing from the Jews whose job was to do nothing but kill, backing from his own mafia family, backing from the mafia families of his allies, and also his US government contacts. He was far more connected and influential than Carlo even though it was not through blood ties.

The whole reason Lucky was able to commandeer the mafia was because his power originated from outside of it [with the Jews under Meyer Lansky].

Carlo was in a sense a vassal of the mafia families he represented in the United States. Because they were his power, he had to go along with them. Lucky Luciano on the other hand was more an independent operator.

Power. People say Carlo was stronger because he ruled longer, because Luciano spent time in prison and was deported. But Carlo too was an illegal alien. He was a prisoner in the United States and could not readily leave. To do so meant he might not be able to re-enter. Luciano was free to travel the world after deportation. And for all the time Carlo ruled the 5 families, Luciano spend plenty of time outside of the United States enjoying some sort of immunity...as a bonafide viable mafia boss who was very much still in business. Could Carlo bust out of jail like in a Monopoly game with a get out of jail free card like Luciano? No. That's why Carlo stayed out of jail, cause he knew once he went in, he didn't have enough juice or connections to get out again.

No confusion needed. Most bosses are either one of two types. They either rely on others to fight their battles and win wars by scheming, or they will kill you themselves. Luciano was both.

Cosign. Two heads are often smarter than one. And three is even smarter.

For me though, the core brain of it all was binary: Luciano/Lansky.

Not exactly. Carlo Gambino was probably what we call an illegal alien today. If he had left the United States, it would be difficult for him to return. So he was very much a prisoner in the United States.

He could leave of course, and he might have done so and returned more than once, but he took a risk each time. Not being able to return meant that he would forfeit the kingdom he was sitting atop of.

Does it matter who came up with the idea versus who had he muscle to implement it?



Well just list the names. Almost everyone around Luciano was either inferior in rank to him in mafia family structure, or a subordinate outsider of non Italian ethnicity, or an inferior mafia boss with fewer soldiers, etc.

Turnbull, you do realize that both Carlo and Luciano shared the same source of profit in their most lucrative racket...heroin?

Many people, especially after many of these writers have come out to diminish Luciano's criminal scope, many see Luciano as sort of a retired mafia boss when he was in Italy. Utterly untrue. He was still in the mafia, and he was making boatloads of money the whole time he was out in Italy.

Read a old article after some years after lucky died Carlo had his body flown back to NY and had him burried there and had a whole funeral for hid and he was the speaker. Eulogy.

Binary? Are you sure you're not a street guy, Alfa?

Because I distinctly remember playing cards at Rudy's old Club Arthur one night. This was many, many years ago. And a friendly debate broke out as to the word's meaning.

The general consensus was that it was a form of Traveler's Diarrhea.

How do you know this exactly? What is your source, also who is the source this info came to whichever author you read this from?

There is a lot wrong with what you've said here as far as I can tell. First of all is your attempt to diminish the fact that Carlo died in his bed without spending much time in prison. I honestly had to read what you said three times to make sure I wasn't seeing things. Carlo decided not to go to jail because he was afraid he didn't have the power to get released? That's a half baked theory if I've ever seen one .

I know I'm being a bit crazy here, but how about Carlo like most people didn't want to go to prison because its fucking horrible? I'm under no illusions that Carlo was some supreme all powerful gangster that completely owned NYC, but I fear you may believe in the same sense on Luciano.

As Pizzaboy has said a million times these "vs threads" are fucking pointless. Still the "mafia jerkoff circle" that was forming here was too hard (no pun intended) to ignore.

The Cupola was not yet created during Lucky's tenure as boss. I'm also not sure whether he had explicit backing of Sicillian clans. It seems his ties to Sicily were slim, he was very much Americanized. After his deportation he settled in Naples.