Like I've always said, in the North you paid to not go to war, I think for $300 (it could have been more) you could have "bought" your way out of the draft in the Union and appoint someone to serve in your place. If you were poor you went to war when your name was drawn. In the South, money got you a commission in the CSA Army as a Colonel or higher. Hell Nathan Bedford Forrest had ZERO military training before the war, but he made so much money slave trading he was able to "start" his own cavalry and became a General right off the bat. Like you said bro, the rich ones started the war and the poor ones fought it. It's still like that today, look at the majority of the kids that join the Services, they do so because they can't afford schooling and let the government pay for it and take their chances at going to war.

great post, I love it.

Pizza keeps a jar of Grey Poupon in the back seat of his car. He'll pass it to you, if you ask.

Thanks for the correction. It was all hands on deck in the South, so money wouldn't have gotten you a pass, but a position far from the front lines.

The world is so polarized now with "side" vs "side" that some Southerners are afraid to publicly clarify some of these points and their take on the flag issue. I say let people speak for themselves and draw your own conclusion.

I brought up the social class issue because pezzo's doing the same thing today. Insults my intelligence to see "hawks" speak on political shows about what "we" should be doing...""WE" "US" "OUR" when nan one of them (yes,nan one of them, told you I grew up with Southerners) or anyone in their family will enlist to fight and they will be the only ones benefiting from the conflict.MFers are geniuses the way they are able to craft their messages via the media and convince joe average that national interests and security are what the potential conflicts are about. "WE" "US" "OUR"
There are times when military might is needed to protect national interests and security long term and short term but not as much as we are being lead to believe.

regarding "WE "US " OUR

going back to the first Iraqi war, out of 535 members of congress, only one had a son fighting in the war.

in the Vietnam war, you would be hard put to find any congressmans or senators sons fighting in that war either.

the way the hawks frame the war debates, they are puppets speaking for their masters, [ the defense industry, the war making machine]

Binnie,

What is a bit surprising is that there aren't more children of elected officials or war proponents in the service academies.

Going back to the flag, I hope the national debate can bring some of the issues you and Dixie brought up out there.

When we were kids, the Dukes of Hazzard was everybody's favorite show...and if I dig deep enough I'm sure I can find pictures of my buddies with General Lee t shirts on....which is absolutely hilarious.

I was and am for removing the Confederate flag (ANY Confederate flag) removed from governmental bodies, but it's a different ballgame when it comes to pressuring and harassing businesses and private individuals to do the same thing.

There used to a popular saying that went "I may not agree with what you say, but I'll fight for you're right to say it." The original say is "I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it" and is often attributed to Voltaire, but actually comes from a biography of Voltaire and illustrates his view of freedom of speech.

The U.S. Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech" but government has now turned this on its head. It's not just against the PERSONAL USE of the Confederate flag, but anything that the Far Left doesn't like. That's why it's wrong to call them "liberals." They're fascists.

You nailed it. The South couldn't give up the manpower and the North could. Atlanta I'm guessing was probably the biggest city in the South back then? And it was by no means what it is today numbers wise. The North had NYC which probably dwarfed the CSA alone, much less Philly, Boston, etc. to go along with them. The CSA couldn't afford a war of attrition and yet they played right along with it.

But what gets me when people see I stand behind the flag they see and think racist. Yet my school was in a community of 400 people (but we pulled from the bigger cities around us but not much) and the school only had like 320 in K-12 (yes I went to one school my whole life). It was probably 80% black, so we spent many years together and we took up for each other. There was no racist stuff at our school, and we were quick to back each other up especially during games as it was an us against the world mentality in all sports. Let us go to Sand Mountain area which is extreme NE Bama and back then all white (99% white rural schools) and let one say ni**er and we were all ready to fight over it. All my classmates would say the same about each other too when it comes to something like this. To me America needs more of something like that. We didn't see black and white and just didn't care to. We wore stuff with the Rebel flag on it and nobody thought nothing about it. We shared drinks, Skoal, and sometimes girls But today if you wear anything with the flag on it you'll be escorted out of school.

What happened is my question? We had no problem over it and I was an 80's and 90's school kid so nobody can say it was the 60's South and everyone was afraid to speak up.

Take it out of State and Federal Buildings, but don't let The Left turn it into a fucking Swastika. Because it's also a sign of Southern pride.

Southerners are judged unfairly to begin with, whether they're White or Black (redneck, inbred, etc.). So for those people with a flag at their home or on their car, just leave them the fuck alone.

Very well said. I can even agree with taking it off State and Federal buildings as well. Taking down memorials, statues, and digging up bodies is just too damn crazy IMHO. And you really hit it on the head about Southern pride. It's hard to put into words, I guess because we went through so much together in the Civil Rights days, Reconstruction, etc. it has made us closer than outsiders think and we are not as racist and inbred as people think either. Yes there are still weirdos here for sure, but that is anywhere. I have never wanted to kiss a cousin and never had a sister so...

Also I think we are more dependent on living off the land than most outsiders in the West and North because you live so close to everything. We don't, so many times we fished and hunted to eat and make money among other things and we take great pride in that.

When my oldest kid was young he wanted the Dukes of hazard show was big he wanted the car for Christmas with the confederate flag on the roof. I looked for the car every where but no one had it. It sold out fast I think I found it in queens.

Me I dug daisy duke I wonder if she had a confederate flag tattooed on her ass?

Agreed, that's insane. Like, Rosie O'Donnell insane.

I don't know but she needs to prove it!



Rosie marrying her woman and having kids insane

People comparing the Confederate Flag to the Swastika are making a really bad yet odd comparison.

Something many people don't realize is the Swastika derives from the Sanskrit word 'svastika' which means "good fortune" roughly translated in English. Hindus believe it to be a good luck charm against evil forces. The symbol itself represents the four directions of Brahma, which is akin to God in the Hindu religion. The four directions represent four objects of mankind's pursuit which in this case are natural order, wealth, desire and liberation. It is painted in many shrines.

To make a long story short, we in the West know that Adolf Hitler took that symbol, with his wrongful assumptions about the 'Aryan Race' and used it as his party's flag. Started the second World War, tried to kill all the Jews, lost, killed himself, the Allies won and there was much rejoicing.

The point I'm trying to make is that the Swastika was not always a symbol of hate and anti Semitism, and it still isn't. It's meaning was corrupted in the eyes of West, which is why it's frowned upon by most and even banned in Germany.

The stars and bars have a complex history as well. It was never officially adopted as the Confederate Flag as I should have mentioned earlier, rather it was the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia. After the war, it was used by many pro segregationists and violent groups (the KKK being one) as a symbol of their beliefs.

But like the swastika, a symbol can evolve. In today's south there are probably people who still see it in a prejudiced and racist light. However I think the majority see it as a vehicle of southern pride and loyalty. I've seen blacks wear the colors as well. States rights and anti- big government are two other representations as well. To say it only represents oppression and bigotry is not only misleading, it is historically inaccurate and irresponsible.

It's not an dilemma to deal with. It will and should be removed from state and government buildings. But I'm going to play devil's advocate:

Where the hell was this outrage a year ago? Up until that shooting no one was talking about this. Not a soul. Now because some nutjob shot up a black church it's all of a sudden imperative we stop selling it and curse its name. I call that selective outrage and hypocrisy. Not only are gutless politicians using this as an opportunity for future votes, but it doesn't even get to the root of WHY Dylan Roof decided to do what he did. Even more ironically, sales of the Confederate Flag are up 3600% since Amazon announced it was banning it! FYI to all these idiots, it's not making people want the flag less.

We as a country have to decide what's more important. Hyper sensitivity to feelings and emotional sentiments or discussion. A well thought out dialogue that addresses the tragedy in a pragmatic responsible way. I don't pretend to know the answer, but there's a way to get it. And this is NOT it. Political posturing and bogus outrage over something with a far more multifaceted history than people realize is the exact opposite direction we need to take.

Hell if the blacks can make the n-word, once a supremely derogatory insult, into something positive, the same can be said for the flag despite it's controversial past.

But I don't expect much from today's populace. What's going on right now is just another example of my disappointment.

@Rockstar,

Very good post.
There have been efforts to remove the flag from state buildings/state seals/govt. logos,etc for decades. I think that certain sports organizations will not have championship events in certain states over this, I don't think the NCAA hosts any championship or tourney events in SC or some other states over this. This isn't a new movement, it's just picked up steam because of the outrageous act by the coward in SC.

There are some southerners of different colors who are repulsed by the image of the flag, as there are members of ethnic groups who are repulsed by the slurs they were tagged with by the mainstream culture here. And there are Southerners of different colors who see the flag as part of their region heritage and members of various ethnic groups who have co-opted slurs as part of their personal identities.,

It's an individual choice. While we certainly cannot tell people which symbols or words to identify with , we also cannot tell people which symbols and words should or should not offend them personally. I agree with you that there has to be dialogue, not this "doing it for TV" posturing from talking heads on the boob tube.
These types of honest conversations on net forums are a step in the right direction. I've said before that people shouldn't have to apologize for existing and breathing air, and it's something I really believe. I am who I am with my ideas, beliefs, and views, shaped by my personality,background,rearing,heritage,life experiences and the next man is who he is shaped by a different background and experiences. We will surely not agree on all or most things. I mean, those of us from big families won't even agree on most issues with our SIBLINGS so the idea that people will or should agree on everything is kind of a joke. I feel that healthy exchange of honest views is always a good thing and that outside of actively trying to hurt/offend people or infringe on the rights and freedoms of others that people should be free to be who they are.

Actually the NCAA didn't enforce that ruling, South Carolina baseball actually hosted a regional in baseball after the ruling. That is the playoffs in college baseball.

@Dixie,

Are you sure, because I thought SC and Miss. couldn't hold regional or national championship matches.

How did the SC baseball team get around the ruling?

Wasn't this year my bad, it was last year but still. Not sure how they got around it.

No it needs to stay.

Quick history lesson: After the French and Indian war, the Cajun's in Acadia were sold into slavery by the British (I'm white by the way). The Confederacy freed the Cajuns during the civil war. So by removing the flag you are erasing my peoples history and the reason we became free. But I guess that's cool my history can be tread upon because my ancestors were white slaves and not black. smh

And now they're pulling Dukes of Hazard episodes on TV Land. Taking the flag away from government buildings is understandable, but taking away video games and tv shows because of the flag? This country has gone soft.

Amen. Don't forget the mayor of Memphis wants to dig up Nathan Bedford Forrest (and wife) and move them from a park in Memphis too. A fucking shame.

First time hearing about this. But, yeah sadly from what I have seen on the internet only POC's can slaves. I really hope your history can survive this, and be taught to future generations.

Also, has anybody brought up that NY film critic who believes that Gone with the Wind should be banned?

Never liked the movie any way.

http://www.irehr.org/issue-areas/race-ra...te-flag-removal

Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan to Protest Confederate Flag Removal
Devin Burghart 07.01.2015

Following the brutality of Charleston church massacre, the continued presence of the Confederate battle flag over the South Carolina Statehouse ignited a national discussion about racism. Now, a North Carolina Ku Klux Klan faction has inserted itself into the already volatile mix.

“If you’re white and proud, join the crowd,” declared the hotline of the Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan, announcing the Confederate flag rally. The Pelham, North Carolina-based Klan faction, which calls itself the “largest Klan in America,” filed a permit noting they expect between 100 and 200 people to attend a July 18 rally on the north side of the building, near the Confederate soldier memorial where the Confederate battle flag is currently flown.

In addition to “standing up for our Confederate history,” the Loyal White Knights have also been standing up for Dylann Roof, the white nationalist accused of the Charleston murders. According to the group’s hotline, Roof was a “young warrior.” Loyal White Knights Grand Dragon, Robert Jones, told the Post and Courier the Roof was “heading in the right direction; wrong target.”

While supporting the murders generally, Jones disagreed with the targets and the church location. According Jones, Roof “should have actually aimed at the African-American gang-bangers, the ones who are selling the drugs to white youth, the ones who are robbing and raping every chance they get.”

Just days after the Charleston shooting, the Loyal White Knights littered lawns in Alabama, California, Goergia, Kansas, and Mississippi with plastic baggies filled with pieces of candy and Klan contact information. The effort is a slight twist on the "newspaper nightriding" that the American Knights of the Ku Klux Klan popularized during the 1990s, where they would tuck Klan propaganda inside free newspapers and throw them on lawns in the middle of the night.

The Loyal White Knights of the Ku Klux Klan formed back in 2012 out of the collapse of the Rebel Brigade Knights of Ku Klux Klan. The Loyal White Knights burst onto the scene with a March 2013 Memphis rally protesting the city’s decision to rename three parks, including one named for Nathan Bedford Forrest, a Confederate General and first national leader of the Ku Klux Klan.

That's absurd. Why not pull every show from the '50s and '60s that didn't feature Black characters?

Bend over backwards liberalism run amok. I weep for the future of this country. And I'm serious, too.

Fuck this guy. He should die a slow and painful death.

There are articles quoting the words of the designer of one of the early versions of the flag.

Here is a google books preview of a book which lists the words of William Thompson about the flag



William Thompson-proposed designs for the 2nd conf. flag

Hopefully with the next elections, something might change. But, nothing will change the media who will report whatever, just for the ratings, even if it hurts this country the most.

Klan getting involved in the debate clouds the message that others are trying to convey about what the flag might mean to them.
When the thug element got involved in the civil protests against police brutality, they ended up having a similar effect.
Many people chose to dismiss or ignore the points that people were trying to make because the thugs overshadowed them, KKK is drawing a line in the sand and will drown out all of the points made here.

They are actually going to help the case for the people calling for the end of the flag.

The reason the kkk gets involved with this shit is to try and recruit new members.