vito was hardly a civilian

More the reason to retaliate then

The Pagans used to push the mob around back in the 80s and 90s when they weren't working with them. That relationship was schizophrenic to say the least. But they weren't exactly civilians...

Not sure that Pagans pushed the mob around, but they definitely stood up for themselves, which in a way doesn't really show that the LCN is weaker than its thought to be. Any criminal organization or individual can be left alone if they take a stance, but many fail to do so.

"Push around" was used more for effect than accuracy. Their problems were usually started by the mob with disrespectful behavior and the Pagans who ended things. Keep in mind, in Philadelphia/Delco/upstate, the Pagans used to have a more fearsome reputation than the mob years ago. They were chopping up bodies and paying off cops all at the same time. Alot of sick guys going through the ranks at the time.

Im curious to why Bruno never retaliated against Vito. I mean the guy was a capo and some random bookie tries to kill him, seems pretty emasculating.

theres a bunch of pussys who are made guys. would you call them a pussy? no theyd have their boys beat ur ass while they get in sucker punches. but one on one? thats why theres no such thing as one on one in the mob.

the sciandras were labeled as weak after the shooting. the shooter sided up with the bonannos and they protected him at a sit down. sciandras settled for cash and it hurt their reputation (so ive heard). imo bad play on carmines part, im all for non violence but shoot my brother sit down or not. guys gonna get hurt. its just whether its green lit or on the sneak. either way its the street move.

Good info Skinny, are Sal and Pete made?

thanks tommy. neither, only carmine got made.

Mobsters, like the rest of the population, are a mixed bag. Just like with the general population, you have guys who are tough, strong, talented, capable, etc., and then you have guys who are not. You also have many that are in between the two extremes. Some guys are more brain than brawn; some guys who have no brawn or toughness at all; and then you have guys who are basically just toughness and brawn.

That fight you had with that 'mobster' could have turned out a number of different ways. Using one example like that really proves nothing overall; it just proves that on that particular day with that particular guy, you prevailed. You can't really extrapolate out from that one instance to arrive at some general consensus about how tough or not tough the average mobster is.

Most organized criminals (I think?) are not professional fighters or strongman competitors who are known for their elite-level fighting skills or herculean strength. They are, however, known for being violent, vengeful, and willing to use violence and mayhem to get their way. I doubt your typical mobster is going to be afraid of some neighborhood street tough or even some pro fighter.

Winning hand-to-hand fights is not how organized crime exerts its influence.

I always have to laugh at self-described tough guys who think that being able to kick someone's a** in a fight has any significant meaning or that physical prowess is the end-all, be-all of anything. If it were, every guy in a position of power in the world, whether a legit guy like the President or a underworld guy like a mobster, would be the strongest, baddest fighter walking the planet. And that is never the case.

Obama, like most world leaders, is a pencil-neck geek. As are many of the underworld leaders. I doubt Carlo Gambino was ever in an actual fight. The same for Castellano and many others.

I think John Gotti Sr. would be a tough guy to fight, probably much tougher than his muscle-bound, steroid-infused son Junior, who, going by everything that I have read and heard about him, was more of a fake tough guy, trading off the name and reputation of his dad and uncles.

John Alite was/is obviously a very capable guy. I wouldn't want to fight him even now, and he's like 52/53.....

But I get what you are saying in a larger sense. Many of the mob's powerful leaders are not powerful in a physical sense: they are often older, deconditioned, out-of-shape guys who get little more exercise than walking to and from the social club. A sedentary lifestyle, advanced age, and a diet rich in cannoli's and pasta does not lend itself to being a physically capable guy. But still, there are exceptions. Even an out-of-shape guy can be a tough fighter. And it doesn't take much energy or strength to set someone up and pull a trigger.

Yep. And yet we have this adolescent thinking on these boards that it's somehow relevant.

2 very good points.

agreed. its not about toughness, it's about the willingness to kill

Yeah, it's strange how many guys reach a certain age and all of a sudden they develop this macho, tough-guy, 'I can take on anyone' sort of mentality. Not sure if that is just ego, hormones, insecurity, or just braggadocio.

really depends on the guy obviously. i mean i know some older aged people who're tough sob's.

Obama would kick Gotti's ass. He'd sting like a butterfly and punch like a flea.

One of my first jobs was working in a poolroom. There were some really bad ass guys in there, also some amazing pool players.

I once remember an older guy telling e that even though a guy is old, now remember I was about 16 at the time and this guy was in his 40's. Anyway, he said the older guy while might not be as in shape, would always be "meaner".

He said we all get meaner as we grow older.

I'm not sure if its always the case, but its just something to think about.

I argued about this recently with someone. He said that the biker scene from Bronx Tale could never occur these days. I protested a bit, but I can see that he is right. Or that the roles would be reversed.

I think the bikers, in general, make less money and have less sophisticated schemes. That said, they have far fewer rats and have "tighter" groups. They also have a rural component that the mob doesn't have.

Never saw bikers here in Brooklyn I never went looking for them either. In Manhattan on east 8 street yes hells angels. The other gangs saw here Latin Kings. There was a killing get in the 80s Latin Kings killed a few guys on 18 ave. I don't think anyone went after them either.

I had a little trouble with younger Latin Kings. They jumped my youngest son one night. He was in the wrong place at the wrong time plus he did not know how to choose friends back then. They stabbed him a few times with screw drivers and broke his arm with a baseball bat.

The thing about gangs is they all don't live in club houses. Older ones who are married and kids have apartments. The younger ones have families sisters, mothers who are in houses.

You can't kill all the gang members. But you can get to the ones who's families lives in the apartments and houses. Get to them they suffer even more then if you got to the gang members themselves.

Agreed footreads, aside from the East Village, I rarely see bikers in NYC. Philly, I hear is a different story.

Also, on Long Island the Hell's Angel's rival crew is very prominent. I think its the outlaws or pagan's. When I was on nautical mile almost every weekend, we would see them up and down the avenue. They holed up at a bar across the street from Hudson and McKoy ( part owned by the Luchesse's at the time).