It's not about having an obsesssion withe the West Side. I've never even been to NYC and don't get a stipend for talking them up.

The original question was about the biggest loansharks. Tooped offered his opinion that certain guys in Chicago were the biggest at certain periods though his reason for thinking that way is largely speculative from what I can tell.

The NYPD considered Tieri the biguest loanshark in the country. I find that believable due, not only the size and extent of Tieri's own operations, but also vecause the family has always been said to have the biggest gambling and loansharking operations.

Do we even have a statement from law enforcement saying something similar about anyone in Chicago? Not that I know of. If someone has sourced info they can enlighten me with, please do.

Patriarca underboss Jerry anguilo was huge even threw out his 20 yrs in prison people still borrow and most pay back. Going to see blackmass tonight with my girl I wonder if they'll focus on the mafia lending 250k to winter hill to back there book. I just smiled threw my DVR of dateline prison breakout that shit is insane. Also that guy Jerry in Boston just huge but it all comes down to a regional thing. I'm surprised Frank Teri was the biggest but it make sense I would have thought c gambino first. Maybe salerno.

Jimmy Caci in LA and Nick Marangello in Brooklyn.

Ivy i have much respect for your posts and opinions and im saying this because i dont want you to feel that im taking part in some dick measuring contest. I know that you have quite a knowledge for the Outfit and i believe that you are aware about their past operations in Chicago and around the midwest. The juice racket was one of their prime rackets and belive me they were national. Im not talking about some part of the organization but im talking about as a whole. They even offered services of fixing court cases for a price. Im sure that you heard about the story when crooked cops used to drop off people that they arrested over to DeStefano so they could get some of the bribe money. Also as Cabrini pointed out, Buccieri was giving out loan officer cards. The Outfit's juice operations in Chicago were reduced during the mid 1970's because of some juice operation cases that occured during that period. So they transferred their racket mainly to Vegas and other cities. But during the late 1980's Lenny Patrick was still making quite good cash ammounts for Carlisi from the juice racket in the Chicago area.

Im not saying that Funzi wasnt maybe one of the greatest loan sharks in the country but i want you to understand that the juice racket was one of the prime operations for the Outfit in the past and there's no other way that an organization like the Outfit would've survived for so long if they werent national. Anyway i think that the NYPD were the ones that stated Tieri was the biggest loan shark in the country and that was said when he was under indictment. So we all know that the cops always say things like that so their "victim" can look even scarier in the eyes of the public.

@alexandarns thanks for the regards and i really appreciate your opinions and support

Very true T. the feds tend to do that.

I doubt the NYPD would know who was the biggest loanshark in the country when they never investigated any organized crime figures outside of NYC.

The NYC area is huge but they also had dozens of huge loansharks. Most of Brooklyn was under the Colombos and Gambinos back then.

Right, they were building a Rico case, and how would NYPD know who was the biggest in the country? Makes no sense...

Also, you kinda ignored the ruby stein thing... He was the big loan shark, first with jiggs, then with funzi , every one has read murder machine, I know you remember that thing with the Westies..

I love how you say people don't understand how big ny is, when I'm born and raised in Chicago and have been to ny a few times and you have never been there, lol, you are killing me..
Like how can you say posters from other cities when you are one?
And you are so wrong, these guys do fight over the same pies, perfect example is the construction racket. Gravano talked about it in his book, how it was becoming a bubble that would burst, cause all the families were involved.
Tieri lost a sit down to Tony BAnanas over gambling and sharking right? In jersey, but he has operations nationwide? Then why fight over that when he has operations dwarfing that in New York, which is so superior a territory?
My issue isn't with tieri being a sharks shark, it's like someone else said, you kinda just like
The west side, to the point that you seem to take offense if anyone says anything about some one rivaling New York in like, any damn thing lol, and you ain't even from there, that's why it's funny..

No my problem was you didn't mention any of that in your initial response;
You just kinda took offense to the fact someone mentioned a bunch of Chicago loan sharks being in the same league as some New York ones, and that doesn't make sense to me.
I'm cool if you say tieri was the biggest loan shark, but you gave no reasoning or examples beyond, well he's in New York and he is in the biggest family, that's just bad logic.
I remember the first time I read that the biggest mafia boss in the 60s was CArlos MArcello, it made no sense to me, until I read a little about him.
I couldn't understand how MEdillin was bigger than CAli when CAli was based in NEw York, until I studied the drug trade...
It took a whole thread to convince you Detroit was kinda good at moving dope lol.
I remember I read George Remus was the biggest bootlegger, from Ohio of all places...
And you are not wrong about the size of New York, but I'll quote the BRasco movie, "5000 wise guys chasing the same buck", they do canibalize each other's markets, this is why they move around, if New York was big enough to never expand, they wouldn't go anywhere. THey don't have a right to everything happening in ny everywhere at all times.
And a lot of the times, these guys are going to be confined to their own ethnic group or neighborhoods
Take costellos slots, he got run outta New York to NO, and because NO had a more favorable, corrupt able climate to crime, the territory was more valuable at that time..
But this is a stupid fuckin argument anyway, like its ALL speculation, just why you always attack anything not New York confounds me...

of all the books about the outfit, gus Russo's is one of the best, he mentions that destefano had over 1.5 mill on the street, that was the biggest shark in Chicago

along with all the other juicers in Chicago, indeed the outfit, and their sharking was world wide, comparable to anyone.

keepup the good work toodoped, you're the best on this site.

Ooh another thing from that Brasco book, it really surprised me how much respect lefty, a New York guy gave millwaukee, ( a cow town) and how excited he was to do business there, also how out of place he was outside his own environment...

Here is a good example of New York media hyperbole;
Colombo guys, resource capital, a real white collar shy operation, they said it was the biggest ever uncovered?
What?https://books.google.com/books?id=KxMCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=biggest+new+york+loan+sharks&source=bl&ots=YJICjikgLg&sig=1ZuzNTkQwYLSiiZMxiJx_oXkvcI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwADgKahUKEwjCuLq8sYXIAhUMOpIKHR5gCSE#v=onepage&q=biggest%20new%20york%20loan%20sharks&f=false

Let me try again....https://books.google.com/books?id=KxMCAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=biggest+new+york+loan+sharks&source=bl&ots=YJICjikgLg&sig=1ZuzNTkQwYLSiiZMxiJx_oXkvcI&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCYQ6AEwADgKahUKEwjCuLq8sYXIAhUMOpIKHR5gCSE#v=onepage&q=biggest%20new%20york%20loan%20sharks&f=false

Uuug

Finally, damn..

@Binnie thanks a lot man i really appreciate it. How ya doin?Long time no see...

Thanks for the link Cabrini. Besides Milwaukee, the mob had also large operations in Tuscon mostly by doing loan sharking and real estate deals. If Tuscon was such a "cow town" than why all the rivalry?

Exactly my point, I don't like the pissing matches and arguments, who comes on here for that?
I was just looking for some examples I hadn't heard of, or some funny stories, like joe butch with the money in his restaurant freezer lol

After the early years, there's very few examples of the NY families fighting over territory. So sorry but you'll have to do a lot better than quoting Donnie Brasco to make your point.

And me not being from NY (or Chicago in your case) helps my objectivity. I don't have dog in the fight, so to speak, and no reason to favor a certain family in some dick measuring contest.

Anyone who has studied the mob knows the scope of the NY metro area. We're talking the 5 NYC boroughs, Long Island, Westchester and the northern suburbs, Southwest Connecticut, and North/Central Jersey. Nothing else in the country even comes close. There's a reason why it has the 5 largest families in the country.

Also, look at the cases in NY and Chicago over the last 15 years. Very few loansharking cases in Chicago. Tons of them in NY and the surrounding areas. Seems to me it's pretty obvious whice region has been more lucrative for the mob, both past and present.

Just because Tieri had operated outside NY, it doesn't mean he was just going to give Caponigro the gambling and loansharking operation in Jersey. Which, by the way, he ended up getting anyway.

Gravano's comment to Paul was certainly about mob saturation in the construction industry but one of the reasons they had those Commission meetings was to coordinate the racket and make sure everyone got a piece so there was no fighting.

But back to the original question regarding the biggest loansharks in the country. Who else beside Tieri was even identified as the biggest? Nobody in Chicago or anywhere else outside NY. Yet we have you guys floating the names of guys in Chicago based on, well, nothing. At least one can point out the claim against Tieri made by the NYPD. And, considering the Genovese family has long been said to have the biggest gambling and loansharking operations in both NY and the country, it shouldn't be that hard to believe unless you just don't want to believe it.

Again, give me something to believe someone...anyone...in Chicago or elsewhere was the biggest in the country or bigger than Tieri. You can't. All I've seen is examples of there being big loansharks in Chicago and that was never in dispute to begin with.

Also, Marcello was never close to being the biggest mob boss. Not sure where you read that. Comparatively speaking, he was a very small operator to even the smallest NY family.

And while it's hard to say who was bigger between Cali and Medellin - I've seen the same general figures for both - one article said this -

The experts here used to think that the Medellin cartel was bigger in every way than its less flamboyant competitor. But they say it is now clear that the Cali cartel, which controls the markets in New York and Washington, D.C., is much more efficient and may actually ship more cocaine than Medellin.
http://www.nytimes.com/1989/09/19/world/the-cali-cartel-colombia-s-smoother-drug-gang.html

Another said this -

Today, Cali's worldwide cocaine share is equal to or bigger than Medellin's, the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity.
link

By the way, learn to use the edit function rather than making 4 or 5 follow up posts.

No dog in this fight other than to say its almost impossible to really tell how'much bread a guy on. The street has. But why do many reporters and authors claim the outfit basically invented the juice loan....seems to me it's been around at least as long as any mob anywhere.

No idea who would claim that. Usury has been around for millenia.

If the number of court cases for juice operations was lower in Chicago than New York that doesn’t mean that the NY mafia used to have more juice operations than the Outfit. The Outfit was infiltrated in the government much more than the New York mob ever was. I want to add that the juice operation is an enterprise that doesn’t need a large group of associates to carry out its functions. This racket is operated in stealth manner and usually the operators are blood thirsty criminals with gruesome reputation so they don’t need any protection from their victims and the Chicago mob used to have a lot of guys like that.

Here’s a small part of history on the Outfit’s juice operations in other cities…

One of the earliest juice operations outside of Chicago, were in Miami, Florida and Wisconsin. Ralph Capone held a speak easy known as the “Brothers” in Hurley, Wisconsin and operated a large scale of juice operations from that joint.

During the early 1930’s in Reno, Nevada the Chicago mob held a large scale of juice operations at The Bank Club Casino. These operations were overseen by mob associate John Drew.

In the 1940’s large scale juice operations were held in Miami and Tampa, Florids at the race tracks that were owned by the Outfit, such as the Beach Kennel Club, Jacksonville Kennel Club and the Orange Park Kennel Club. Also in San Francisco, California at the Villa Chanticleer Casino, members from Chicago’s north side crew were in charge of the operations. During the late 1940’s Sam Yaras, brother of Dave Yaras, besides his coin machine racket, he also operated few juice operations. At the same period Lenny Patrick and Dave Yaras made connections and expanded their gambling and loan shark operations in Milwaukee, through John Ditrapani, who I think he was later murdered by the Outfit.

During the late 1950’s Giancana’s main juice operator Fifi Buccieri had spread his operations in Gary and Hammond, Indiana and Milwaukee, Wisonsin.

During the early 1960’s in Tucson, Arizona, the juice operations were controlled by Sam English, Joseph English and Leonard Russo. Sam alone had more than $500,000 on the streets. Also Joseph DiCaro, associate of, Sam Battaglia’s crew had few big juice operations going on. These guys mostly lent money to companies that were on the downfall. The crew pulled 10% of their earnings in Chicago and invested it in the juice racket. Also Joe “Buddy” Tocco, associate of the Chicago Heights crew, had many juice operations in Tucson.

By the mid 1960’s the Chicago crime bosses made a complete takeover of the bookmaking and loan shark operations by extracting a 50% tribute from the gross profits of all of the bookies and juice men in the area, thus making a multi-million dollar a year racket.

During the 1970’s Tony Spilotro oversaw large scale juice operations at the Circus Circus Casino. The Outfit's juice operations in Chicago were reduced during the mid 1970's because of some juice operation cases that occurred during that period. So they transferred their racket mainly to Vegas and other cities. According to the FBI Spilotro was the main guy that made loans to debtors both in Las Vegas and other cities around the country, such as Phoenix and Tucson, Arizona.

Top notch dicussion Toodoped and Ivy,forum is reciving a lot with you guys.

the billy jack and tony gicacolne were major as was the general hilf used to kick up 200k every Christmas right up to his death in 2013

Smaldone brothers in denever ran a major shy

I bet some of those smaller familys had some big shy esp there was little competition

I gonna go by common sense the bigger the city the bigger the loans.

No that dosent mean that.There were about 1500 made men in NY and 100 soliders in Chi.NY had 8 milion people in 1950,chi had 3 million 600 thousend people also in 1950.So you do the math.That dosent mean anything.
not saying that a guy from NY wasnt the biggest,just saying it dosent have to mean anything.

Ivey, look, you are arguing, I don't even know what, like I started off naming 3 big ny sharks, including the guy who was whole reason you are naming tieri as the top shark, Ruby stein.
Admit it, it irked you when he said buccierri and those chi guys were bigger, what I don't get is why it irks you so much.
Like if you woulda came back with no, actually Luchesses garment Center shy was the biggest thing going, or something, you say, "well NYPD said he was the biggest, and New York is the biggest yadda, yadda, then you call fan boy lol
Let me ask you this, when did Tieri become the biggest, after JIggs FOrlano?

And you keep bringing up that quote from the 70s, cause it supports your faulty hypothesis. In murder machine, after stein got killed, funzi didn't even have the ledgers, so it's clear he was just protecting him, like he didn't build that book, and it can't be a coincidence this guy stein happens to be associated with two guys named as the biggest sharks, like it was his book, goddamn...
Like, tell me Lepke or someone Jesus lol...

One last thing, gravano moved on Paul mostly cause of construction money, Paul even cannibalized his own people's rackets see? What's the , Piccolo?
Why the genovese need to kill him if ny is so big enough for everyone, why kill the guy?
And why was he killed, he had competing interest..
Gotti and Franceze sit down , loan action at flea markets, it eventually took up three families, they ended up fucking the operation up cause they were fighting over one little market, I'm sure there are too many examples to list so I'll stop there...