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Re: Crime families size in heyday and present day
[Re: BillyBrizzi]
#862296
10/04/15 05:20 AM
10/04/15 05:20 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,679 Chicago
CabriniGreen
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As far as which families were what, I don't know: I read The Morello book, they said at no point did Maranzano have more men than masseria, or even money, yet he won the war cause he had soldiers whose loyalty was based on pride more than money. The CAstellamarre click stuck together, this made MAranzano more powerful than Masserria when war broke out, even though his family was smaller and had less money. The Luchesses were small, but I think pound for pound they kept pace or made as much money as any family, so their members (I could be wrong) were probably on average richer than the average wise guy, does this make them a weaker or stronger family? It seems to me if the 1998 Bonnanos can have 150, it's reasonable for the 1950-60s BOnnanos to have 180-190 or whatnot. Remember, they coulda had a lotta zips too... The GAmbinos seem to have always been the biggest numbers wise, but does that make them automatically number 2? But under DAquila they were first? I get confused about this... I've been trying to diagram a map of power on this time period for a while now, it's still confusing..
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Re: Crime families size in heyday and present day
[Re: CabriniGreen]
#862303
10/04/15 05:48 AM
10/04/15 05:48 AM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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How about Joquin GArcia saying the Gambinos had 26 crews? How does that work? How many soldiers you think that would equate to? 26 crews seems like a bit of a stretch. During Gotti's reign there were 21 crews. Later, during the 1990s, the family was down to 10 or 12 fully functioning crews at one point. While I believe they have more than that now, 26 seems high. As I said above, 200 total members is the estimate. I think you can see why I try to read as much as possible, but kinda draw my own conclusions a little bit, like everyone respects the five families book, so is the guy a hack? Probably not, just a mistake I guess, but he's supposed to know right? Lol Not at all. Raab is one of the best mob journalists out there, right up there with Capeci, Anastasia and Robbins. But his figures have always been on the big side. You'll notice in chapter 28 of the book, which is after the Commission case in the mid 1980s, he has the Gambinos at 400 members. In one 1995 article he said the family had gone from 400 to 200 members in the last 5 years. Not sure how that's even possible. In the book and article, he had the Genovese family at 300 members which also seems inflated for that time.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime families size in heyday and present day
[Re: IvyLeague]
#862304
10/04/15 06:07 AM
10/04/15 06:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,516
gangstereport
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,516
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How about Joquin GArcia saying the Gambinos had 26 crews? How does that work? How many soldiers you think that would equate to? 26 crews seems like a bit of a stretch. During Gotti's reign there were 21 crews. Later, during the 1990s, the family was down to 10 or 12 fully functioning crews at one point. While I believe they have more than that now, 26 seems high. As I said above, 200 total members is the estimate. I think you can see why I try to read as much as possible, but kinda draw my own conclusions a little bit, like everyone respects the five families book, so is the guy a hack? Probably not, just a mistake I guess, but he's supposed to know right? Lol Not at all. Raab is one of the best mob journalists out there, right up there with Capeci, Anastasia and Robbins. But his figures have always been on the big side. You'll notice in chapter 28 of the book, which is after the Commission case in the mid 1980s, he has the Gambinos at 400 members. In one 1995 article he said the family had gone from 400 to 200 members in the last 5 years. Not sure how that's even possible. In the book and article, he had the Genovese family at 300 members which also seems inflated for that time. i dont jack said that the feds had 23 capos in there wcharts that was 2004 and that he informed the feds about three capos they did not even know existed the feds did not even have louie fillpeni as anything to do with the mob (even though he was a made guy who reported directly to arnold) alphonse as a low level soldier but jack said the investigation said he was a capo not a soldier. They did not even know alphonse crew existed i think jack falcone will know how many capos there are seeing as he was in the gambino family for two years he said at the beginning of the investigation he arguared constantly with the higher ups in the feds because the feds kept saying its not on pur chart it cant be real the feds did not even have jo jo corezzo as consgleire and arnold as boss and tony megale as underboss embarrassing really jack will know better than any of us. That 12 full functioning crews was an exaggeration by rabb and the feds looking for there headlines the FBI did not seem to realize that the guys who got arrested were replaced the feds started to believe there own headlines
Not connected with scott or anyone at gangsterreport
Sorry for the confusion
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Re: Crime families size in heyday and present day
[Re: IvyLeague]
#862305
10/04/15 06:18 AM
10/04/15 06:18 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,679 Chicago
CabriniGreen
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Joined: May 2015
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But see Ivey that's what I mean, MAsseria was seen as the strongest boss, UNTIL they went to war, then it became clear he was actually no match for MAranzano, esp after Morello was killed. What makes you number one, having the biggest family, making the most money, or having the better army? History has shown force beats money, Gotti- CAstellano, Casso/Amuso vs the Harlem Bronx guys, Corleonesi vs BOntade families, there are other examples but you get my point. To me power is water, not stone. Like MAssino was considered top boss in the late 90s, but it was a prestige thing, not based on family size or wealth, for me the question of power is where it gets interesting...
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Re: Crime families size in heyday and present day
[Re: BillyBrizzi]
#862308
10/04/15 06:52 AM
10/04/15 06:52 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,815 Larry's Bar
Giacomo_Vacari
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,815
Larry's Bar
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Masseria was betrayed. The war would have dragged out another year or so in a stalemate with the lose of men and money on both sides and chances are LCN would not have the big grip they had on the unions later on. On the topic of Jack Garcia, he was not the only agent that gave the feds information about a crime family that the feds disbelieved and cast it a side. They did it a couple of times, when Joe Pistone said that Carmine Persico was calling the shots in the Colombo family instead of Tom DiBella, and said that Nick Guastella remained with Joe Bonanno instead of switching to San Jose. Pistone said the Bonanno family had 17 crews, and after Galante was killed two of the crews were disbanded and it's members were placed in other crews. That Just the FBI, The Bureau of Narcotics had an agent get close to John Ormento in the Lucchese crime family, during mid 1950s. He gave The Bureau of Narcotics these numbers in 1956, Anastasia 350, Bonanno 200+ Galante has a crew in Canada, Costello 400+ A crew on the West coast, Lucchese 240+ A crew in Los Angeles, and Profaci 160+ A crew in California Bay Area.
"I have this Nightmare. I'm on 5th avenue watching the St. Patrick's Day parade and I have a coronary and nine thousand cops march happily over my body." Chief Sidney Green
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Re: Crime families size in heyday and present day
[Re: BillyBrizzi]
#862313
10/04/15 07:19 AM
10/04/15 07:19 AM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,679 Chicago
CabriniGreen
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Underboss
Joined: May 2015
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Chicago
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Also, GIacomo I had no idea ALL the five families had a crew in LA at the same time, that's why I love this site... I was going to comment on the number of guys in the Cali fams, but that explains a lot, I was baffled at San JOse having more members than say NEw ORleans, considering the large Sicilian population there, as well as that being like the original mafia family... I agree with you on MAsseria, MAranzano was strong when he was at war, but all that Caesar shit woulda got him killed by maybe even BOnnano eventually...
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Re: Crime families size in heyday and present day
[Re: BillyBrizzi]
#862321
10/04/15 08:20 AM
10/04/15 08:20 AM
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Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 2,815 Larry's Bar
Giacomo_Vacari
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San Jose did have a lot of members that came through Goosetown, with some of them staying. When Sebastian Nani of the Profaci family was deported, Vincenzo Figlia transferred to San Jose followed by Salvatore Cerrito a year later, the Ditri brothers brother in law transferred to San Francisco when Nani left. Tony Ditri transferred from the Bonanno family to San Jose in 1964, Daniel Ditri was not made till the 1970s into the San Jose family, but the west coast families had a lot of transplants. Keep in mind that there are a lot of family relations with these families. As for Bonanno in California, he had the bay area in his grip since 1946, he had a crew in Arizona and a crew in Santa Clara County, but I don't believe he had a crew in the Los Angeles area, but a couple of soldiers, most notably Antonio Bello who's son became a made man in the Los Angeles family, and it was Antonio who tried to get Frank Bompenseiro to kill Frank DeSimone and implicate Joe Bonanno in it. There was also a Bonventre who was a soldier and was to keep an eye on Bello. The most notable member is Charles Battaglia who was made in the Los Angeles family and transferred to the Bonanno family.
"I have this Nightmare. I'm on 5th avenue watching the St. Patrick's Day parade and I have a coronary and nine thousand cops march happily over my body." Chief Sidney Green
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Re: Crime families size in heyday and present day
[Re: BillyBrizzi]
#862335
10/04/15 10:15 AM
10/04/15 10:15 AM
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
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I'm aware of the 150 members estimates for the Bonannos by the early 2000s. I think they were a little inflated.
In 2001, the feds released a no contact list for Robert Lino that included all 111 known Bonanno members (including Lino himself oddly enough). Frank Lino testified the family had 12 captains and 100 soldiers in 2003. Add a 3 man administration and you're looking at 115 members. And wiretaps for the Basciano case in 2006 revealed the family had less than 100 soldiers then. Even if we go with 99 soldiers, and throw in another dozen or so administration and captains, it doesn't come to 150 members. I'll ask again, did these numbers include the Montreal crew? It's stated in either the Sixth Family or Mafia Inc. (probably both) that the Bonannos had 150 members including Montreal in the early 80s. I'm not sure what sources were used for these figures and perhaps these were simply based on the 15 capos they had at the time (a capo originally being in charge of ten soldiers). I'll also have to add to my previous statement that another guy with Sciacca said the Bonannos had 100 members after which Sciacca said 180. Sciacca was the current acting boss at the time. I'm fairly conservative when it comes to total numbers for the families and think that they may have always had pretty much the same numbers. A number cap of 300 for the Genoveses and Gambinos and 150 for the three smaller families sounds believable to me. Yet the 180 members statement by Sciacca doesn't sound like being pulled out of thin air. Also I find it quite odd that according to D'Arco the Colombos were allowed to have more members than the Luchesses and Bonanno.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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Re: Crime families size in heyday and present day
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#862378
10/04/15 05:33 PM
10/04/15 05:33 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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That 12 full functioning crews was an exaggeration by rabb and the feds looking for there headlines They weren't saying the Gambinos were down to 10 or 12 crews. They said 10 or 12 crews out of the 21 in the family were fully functioning in the years immediately following Gotti's conviction. Gravano did a lot of damage, including help convict 7 Gambino captains. Those other crews didn't vanish but they were in a state of disarray and not functioning fully for a time. I'll ask again, did these numbers include the Montreal crew? It's stated in either the Sixth Family or Mafia Inc. (probably both) that the Bonannos had 150 members including Montreal in the early 80s. I'm not sure what sources were used for these figures and perhaps these were simply based on the 15 capos they had at the time (a capo originally being in charge of ten soldiers). I'll also have to add to my previous statement that another guy with Sciacca said the Bonannos had 100 members after which Sciacca said 180. Sciacca was the current acting boss at the time.
I'm fairly conservative when it comes to total numbers for the families and think that they may have always had pretty much the same numbers. A number cap of 300 for the Genoveses and Gambinos and 150 for the three smaller families sounds believable to me. Yet the 180 members statement by Sciacca doesn't sound like being pulled out of thin air. Also I find it quite odd that according to D'Arco the Colombos were allowed to have more members than the Luchesses and Bonanno. Like I said before, 180 members in the 1950s and 1960's is believable if you go with the higher end estimates. 150 in the early 1980s seems high for that time period. You'll notice that the figures I posted above were after the death of Sciascia when the Rizzutos were said to have broken off from the Bonannos. But even if that break never actually happened, or even if we do not include the Montreal crew in the figures above but add them now, it still doesn't come to 150.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime families size in heyday and present day
[Re: CabriniGreen]
#862380
10/04/15 05:46 PM
10/04/15 05:46 PM
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
IvyLeague
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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But see Ivey that's what I mean, MAsseria was seen as the strongest boss, UNTIL they went to war, then it became clear he was actually no match for MAranzano, esp after Morello was killed. What makes you number one, having the biggest family, making the most money, or having the better army? History has shown force beats money, Gotti- CAstellano, Casso/Amuso vs the Harlem Bronx guys, Corleonesi vs BOntade families, there are other examples but you get my point. To me power is water, not stone. Like MAssino was considered top boss in the late 90s, but it was a prestige thing, not based on family size or wealth, for me the question of power is where it gets interesting... Massino was considered the top boss in the late 1990s and early 2000s basically by default. The others were in prison by then and he had seniority. But that certainly didn't make the Bonannos the strongest family. As for Masseria, most historians seem to think he was the top boss before and during the war. In his case, that was probably due to the fact he headed the strongest family.
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Crime families size in heyday and present day
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#862404
10/04/15 09:57 PM
10/04/15 09:57 PM
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Joined: May 2015
Posts: 1,679 Chicago
CabriniGreen
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Underboss
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See this is exactly why I get confused: It's like is it a commission, or really a dictatorship like maranzano? Cause you see a weak boss, but in AHistory of the Sicilian cosa nostra,it says PRofaci Was instrumental in mediating a truce between the Grecos from Ciaculli and Giardini, also close to the Villabate boss... He's older than BOnnano at the time, that's what I meant by seniority, plus their kids married right? Just like Carlos and LUchesses? Plus he's got family married into the Detroit family, and BOnnano is family with the Maggadino family. So what I wonder is how does a COmmision meet go at this time period, I didn't even MEntion MAngano. Profs I had an airport on his estate if I'm not correct, that's kinda crazy isn't it? Like that a lotta olive oil lol
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