If the movies are played near you, I recommend going to see. Both 1 and 2 are playing near me next week and I plan on going - again. On a movie screen you can see the slit throat on one of the Tahoe shooters, Will have to look again at the 2nd one.
I can't see how Rocco would have camouflaged his gun standing that close to the cops and feds when they heard the shot right next, in front of or beside them, he's lucky he got as far as he did hopping away on his bad knee.
Neri probably still had some favors owed him from his former job and got info from them. He was gotten out of jail on a murder rap by the family, of course he's gonna be loyal. If you look as his face when Mike gives him the order about Fredo on the boathouse, he's upset. I think despite everything else he likes Fredo and at the funeral scene, when Mike is " forgiving" Fredo, Mike looks up at Neri and Neri has a very somber look on his face and gives a very subtle nod. Almost as if so say ' I don't want to do this, but, I have to do this.'
Also when Fredo first walks into the funeral scene, he walks up to Neri and says " Hi, Al." it looks like Neri says something to him, but it's edited out, Neri has a look like, Sorry you came Fredo. Neri then walks up to the casket and I take it as him apologizing to Momma for having to whack Fredo.

Hmmm...interesting. I'll have to take another look at that scene.

“If you look as Neri's face when Mike gives him the order about Fredo on the boathouse, he's upset.
I think despite everything else he likes Fredo and at the funeral scene, when Mike is " forgiving" Fredo, Mike looks up at Neri and Neri has a very somber look on his face and gives a very subtle nod. Almost as if so say ' I don't want to do this, but, I have to do this”

So true It broke Michael's heart too And left a chain of broken hearts
“I killed....I ordered the death of my brother. He injured me. I killed my mother’s son. I killed my father's son”

“Also when Fredo first walks into the funeral scene, he walks up to Neri and says " Hi, Al."
it looks like Neri says something to him, but it's edited out, Neri has a look like, Sorry you came Fredo”

If my memory serves me right,
Neri gives a stricken look knowing Fredo's time was up [sorry Mama died] but I don't seem to recall Neri saying anything to Fredo? Definitely warrants another look at that scene!

“Neri then walks up to the casket and I take it as him apologizing to Momma for having to whack Fredo”

This is very astute observation Something new to look for, at next watch!

Rocco could have camouflaged his gun, say, perhaps in his pocket and even shot Roth through the pocket or something considering Rocco was so close to Roth? Anything but the way Roth's killing was done!

And thanks Guiseppe Petri

“Kay may be absolutely furious that she can't go to Tahoe social functions anymore without people laughing at her”

No kidding! Pete, Are you pulling my leg?!

Michael's public image was not tarnished
In fact he was exonerated, without a blemish, no proof linking him to any criminal conspiracy
Michael's lawyer, Tom was even demanding an apology from the senate committee!

Kay's that look was indeed looking daggers at Michael Well their bedroom had just been machine gun sprayed......

Michael and Kay, when they were dancing at Anthony's party, seemed quite loving in spite of Kay's legitimacy gripe and Michael's reassurance that he was trying
They spoke lovingly about the baby feeling like a boy
Kay was already in bed. Michael sees the drawing Anthony left for him on his pillow, reaches over and strokes Kay's cheek

Whilst Kay didn't even look up from her sewing machine when Michael returned from Havana [was Kay aware Michael was actually home?] Michael also didn't even bother to enter the room to comfort his wife who just had a miscarriage? That was troubling indeed

And Kay did attend the senate hearing every time like a dutiful wife, sitting by Michael's side and the next scene Kay is leaving Michael?

Kay not bringing another one of Michael's sons into this world, changes little or nothing regarding "this must all end" as they already had a son

“Kay was finished with Michael's way of life” but still leaves her children behind in that way of life

You are right! Neri does walk up to the casket and spends a few seconds 'looking' at Mama

Just when we thought we were out of new things, you pull us back in, with this gem!

Just enough time to "say" something like' momma, I'm sorry, but, I have to whck freddy, you know I like him, but I have to do it'.

I don't know about that. Just because you aren't proven guilty doesn't mean that your public image is not tarnished. Ask OJ Simpson about that.

Michael has been very publicly linked to organized crime, and only got off after the star witness against him recanted sworn testimony after Michael brings his brother to the hearing.

I'm sure Michael looked guilty in the court of public opinion.



Kay couldn't do anything about the existing son. But, if you listen to the argument they have in the hotel room, it's largely over concerns about how Anthony is turning out. This is foreshadowed in a deleted scene from the party, when a concerned Kay sees Anthony hanging out with some of the buttonmen.



But it is revealed in GFIII that she did successfully extricate her children from "that way of life." It's not like she got out and never looked back. Clearly, she continued to work on behalf of the children and saved Anthony, even if she couldn't quite save Mary.

Thanks Woltz. Some interpretations are hugely inaccurate. For one, Kay did not leave the kids with Michael. As you point out Woltz, in the hotel scene Michael very clearly and aggressively tells Kay "Do you expect me to let you take my children from me? Don't you know me? Don't you know that that's an impossibility -- that that could never happen."

In III, Michael's reputation is clearly impugned. Reporters ask "What about Mr. Corleone’s connections with Las Vegas gambling?" "What about his involvements with the underworld?"

I posted a thread about Kay getting the kids here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...=true#Post36402

Went to see g1 & g 2 last night at the novies, we're back to back. In g2, the 2 Tahoe shooters that were in the ditch, when Rocco says " It looks like they were hired out of New York" they show the 2 shooters, if you pause it right there, you can see the garrot marks on the guy on the right, but the guy on the left is out of position.
The Geary scene in the brothel, you can see the "dead" hooker breathing in the bed when they show Tom saying " she has no family".

Maybe so!

“The Pope...the Holy Father himself…. has this very day blessed Michael Corleone and you think you know better than the Pope?!!”

pulling your leg! aside,
I reckon, Michael was pretty much “very publicly linked to organized crime" and 'looked' guilty” in the “court of public opinion” long before the senate hearing, out of which, Michael “got off” in my opinion, 'looking' better than before the hearing!

1. all of the below and some! were “put in the record” by the senate chairman
2. Michael having never been arrested or indicted for any crime whatsoever
3. Michael issuing a challenge to the senate committee to produce any witness or evidence against or
4. to clear Michael's name with the same publicity with which they have now besmirched it

Exactly! Woltz
If Kay had concerns about how the existing son 'not' fine Anthony is turning out, in my opinion, as a mother, Kay could [should] have stayed on and nurtured her children as best as she could, not leave them behind in Michael's way of life especially during their most formative, helpless, impressionable, vulnerable years

Ref: How did Kay get the kids? [Thanks Turnbull for the link]
Wow! so many threads! There isn't enough time!

Whilst it is somewhat unclear, exactly how long [perhaps up to University age?] Anthony and Mary were with Michael, looking at them in Godfather III they seem to have turned out pretty good and I believe credit should be given to both the parents

Anthony and Mary's foundation would have been laid, when they were with Michael?
Also Kay tells Michael “Only if you let Tony go free, to have his own life. Away from you” Does this mean Michael was still somehow involved in their children's lives?

It seems, Michael's way of life was finishing! or trying to finish!! [Immobiliare?] by Godfather III [it never ends!]
And Michael did end up remorseful for his sins

Michael still had the drawing Anthony left for him on his pillow, all those years ago
Anthony said to Michael, he will always be Michael's son but will never have anything to do with the business. Fair enough!

If my memory serves me right,
As regards Mary, Michael surrounded by his family, was parading himself and his family in public, so out in the open even at the steps of the Opera house in Sicily, in the night, in full view of anyone lurking knowing Mosca, the assassin who had never failed thus far, was contracted to murder him and that Mosca had already murdered Don Tommasino Go figure!

Michael was slipping not smart Opera

In fairness, I believe it was Vito who sowed the seeds, leaving a murderous legacy and set Michael up for his own destruction

Vito could have cut their losses and walked away from Mafia but he didn't because he wanted, needed the Corleone family reputation, standing, history etc. to be restored, leaving a murderous legacy for Michael

Vito planned all the baptism murders including making his daughter a widow for Michael to carry out after Vito's death

Once Michael took over, it was not easy just to walk away He was a powerful man with responsibility for others

I agree the whole "going legitimate" plan was one that Michael and Vito cooked up as Nevada move was work in progress when Vito was still alive

Michael had the added burden of trying to make decades old Mafia business legitimate
Michael and Kay were unrealistic that such a feat, near impossibility could be accomplished let alone in five years

If Kay hadn't become Michael's horror perhaps they could have salvaged the situation as best as possible
Perhaps Anthony would have become a lawyer which means they would not have been at the Opera and Mary would not have got killed

Even if Kay had been stewing and it never ends, Tahoe shooting, senate hearing public revelations, evasive legitimacy, she never realised how difficult and unrealistic to legitimize the Corleone empire

She never understood nor supportive that he was a top Mafia boss, trying to become a "legitimate" businessman

I also believe Kay did not know that Michael had personally murdered until the senate hearing Perhaps that was the final straw
When talking about sick Vito, she said "But you're not like him" let alone personally murder

The elusive legitimacy.....the answerability and accountability of the funds for the casinos unless Michael's "I own stock in some of the hotels there but very little" at the senate hearing shows how the casinos are "fronted' legally by reputed people with no besmirches

However Geary stated to Michael "You own or you control, two major hotels in Vegas, one in Reno"

1. The Olive oil business so profitable?! bookkeeping faultless?!
2. Corleone's money laundering so successful that it left no trail
3. Didn't the law enforcement question and investigate, where the money came from, for the casinos

Well I agree the roots came from Vito. HOWEVER its not fair to totally excuse Mike. I mean nobody matched the coldness and ruthlessness that mike had. Also mike certainly could of gotten out after killing all the five families. Yes Roth was pissed about Moe but it was mostly because Mike was still heavily involved even though he had moved from New York. I know Mike is the main character so many will try to excuse the choices he made but at the end of the day HE caused the downfall

Interesting No secret, money was crime proceeds

Also legitimacy in Nevada but Pentangeli's crime operation in New York is still called Corleone Go figure!

Does anyone know what Brand of Cigarettes Michael indulged in?

Lucky Strike.

I knew it was a unfiltered smoke.

If i ever purchase a package of Cigarettes ever again it will be that.





I knew it was an unfiltered smoke.

If i ever purchase a package of Cigarettes ever again it will be that.

The car bomb Fabrizzio, Michael and Apollonia thread got me wondering whether Michael on hearing of Sonny's death, resigned himself to his 'destiny' that Michael has to step up and become the Don

Good question.

Many people on this board think Michael "signed on" when he visited Vito in the hospital after the bodyguards were pulled. When he said, "I'm with you now, Pop," Michael meant more than just being physically present with Vito--he was through distancing himself from his family and their business. He could have envisioned, in that moment, that he would eventually be the Don. He certainly knew that, after he killed Sol and Mac, he would never be a "civilian" again. And after the war broke out, Michael might have envisioned that Sonny could be killed, and he'd have to step in. But, the reality didn't set in until Sonny actually was killed, so, Lana, you're probably right.

As we saw in a deleted scene after Connie's wedding, Vito approved of Michael returning to college, which implies that he didn't want Michael to be the eventual Don. That's reinforced near the end, when Vito says to Michael, "I never wanted this for you, Michael...Senator Corleone...Governor Corleone..." On the other hand: In the novel, Clemenza and Paulie drive Kay to her hotel after Connie's wedding. Clemenza tells her that "the old man thought that Michael was the best of his three sons, the one who would surely inherit the family business."

TB, I believe Michael's words at that moment in the hospital were not a commitment to the family business or anything close to that. Michael was simply stating that his estrangement from his father was over.

As far as Michael committing to the family business after hearing of Sonny's Death, in the novel (after Apollonia is murdered) he tells Tommasino to tell his father that he wishes to be his son. Maybe that's a commitment to the family business.

True the reality didn't set in until Sonny actually was killed

I understand Michael “distancing himself from his family [crime] business” but why from his family?

It was strange indeed Michael in his Marines uniform, with his 'American' girlfriend in tow, turns up late for his sister's wedding, then goes and sits away from everybody and everything

Michael didn't go to see his father, mother and siblings, doesn't congratulate Carlo and Connie, the bridal couple

“He certainly knew that, after he killed Sol and Mac, he would never be a "civilian" again” though Vito's speech at the peace meeting 'cleared' Michael of all these false charges!

I believe Michael's involvement and killing of McCluskey and Sollozzo, was solely and all about protecting Vito, at that stage

In fact with the war, everyone would be expected to take extra precautions If not for Carlo...
The Corleones couldn't locate Sollozzo even with a hundred buttonmen on the street, twenty four hours a day! looking for Sollozzo

Michael only distanced himself from his father's guidance, not from his family.
Michael did not turn up late for his sister's wedding since the wedding is not portrayed in the film.
No member of the Corleone family is portrayed in the film congratulating Carlo and Connie
None of the Corleone family members is portrayed in the film as going to see each other except Tom and Fredo when they visited Michael and Kay at their table at the reception.

I note that you put "cleared" in quotes--right! Yes, Vito said, "My oldest son, forced to flee because of this Solozzo business." He didn't outright say Michael killed him...didn't outright say he didn't kill him. Nice bit of legal circumlocution. Tom taught him well.

I will have to watch the film again but as I remember, we do not see his father's guidance portrayed in the film until Michael became the Don

The presence of the guests, wedding reception in full swing, bridal couple sitting at the head table, music, dancing, family gathering for a family portrait indicate and I reckon enough is portrayed in the film, to surmise that the ceremony has been concluded and the wedding has been going, for sometime

All these tell me Michael turned up late and it would be the late arrival that goes to see them especially the bridal couple

Also other members of the Corleone family were already at the wedding so would have already congratulated Carlo and Connie

even FBI there before Michael
his father's guidance not portrayed in the film until Michael became the Don

Vito's surprise birthday flash back scene “family outsider” Michael didn't join his family singing “For he's a jolly good fellow” and remained seated all alone, away from everything