First, one doesn't need to compare all 5 NY families to the Outfit. A comparison with any one of them would make the point.

Also if you are claiming that all 5 families are more powerful than Chicago, that's laughable, maybe they have more man power but Chicago could go out and make 30 idiots tomorrow...

Pardon my French here, but the Chicago Outfit are a bunch of old fucks..

Chicago would need to make 60 guys 'tomorrow' to be just as large as NYC's smallest.
That's a 200% increase to be as big as NYC's bottom family.

For the record. And for perspective.

There have been two confirmed making ceremonies in the late eighties: At least three guys in 1988 (Chiaramonti, DiForti, Scarpelli) and Sal Delaurentis at the Como Inn in 1989. They were still doing the ceremony by then because Rocky Infelise expressed surprise that the old ceremony was still in use.

The ceremony was used prior to the eighties as well, although details about it vary.

Exception to the rule is your go to when talking about the Outfit huh.lol.

The comparison is that with 5 families competing, men have to find other rackets to make money in or be broke. Chicago is one family.

Also if you are claiming that all 5 families are more powerful than Chicago, that's laughable, maybe they have more man power but Chicago could go out and make 30 idiots tomorrow and be infested with rats like New York. Power isn't going out and making someone just because he is such and such's second cousin.

You forget that the Outfit owns more cops than probably every single New York Family. Probably more than the lower three families put together. Almost every Chicago indictment in the last 30 years has a cop indicted in it or helping the Outfit., some with multiple cops.

Also you said that the Outfit had "relatively little involvement in drugs." While I agree with that for the upper echelon, I still think they have more than "relatively little involvement".

And finally the Outfit is involved in other rackets, prostitution, real estate scams, police and political corruption, and while the political corruption isn't what it used to be, they still have powerful Chicago politicians in their pockets. As for different types of fraud the Outfit is involved in. Less than a decade ago Sam Galioto was indicted for Medicare Fraud, was just indicted for a real estate related scam. Before that Centracchio was involved in abortion clinics. About 17 years ago Charles Marzano was selling cocaine and laundering the proceeds through the CME.(Chicago Mercantile Exchange) Chicago's "Wall Street".

Ivy you should have learned your lesson with stupid threads like this. I did

The stuff about made Guy or not in the Chicago outfit. Check out page 155 in "organized crime in Chicago" by lombardo. According to him "there is a definite distinction between being a made guy and being a worker within the Chicago outfit."

Only Bosses and persons of special status within the organization are made guys. Not at all like in NYC, I guess.

Frank the breeze was made as late as 1983 and he was an outfit Guy since the early sixties. It makes more sense if you think of what Lombardo writes.

Thanks to Snakes from blackhand forum



*=Confirmed position/status

Estimated Administration:
Boss: John DiFronzo/86*
Acting Boss: Salvatore DeLaurentis/77
Underboss: Salvatore Cataudella/63
Senior Adviser (Consigliere): Marco D'Amico/79

Suspected Territorial Bosses:
Frank Caruso/69 - 26th Street*
Rudolph Fratto/71 - Elmwood Park
James Inendino/72 - Cicero
Albert Vena/67 - Grand Avenue*

Suspected Members:
Robert Abbinanti/60
Joseph Andriacchi/83
Joseph Calato/65
Michael Caracci/77
Bruno Caruso/71
Leo Caruso/71
Nicholas Cataudella/55
Joseph DiFronzo/81
Peter DiFronzo/82
Robert Dominic/61
Anthony Dote/63
Nicholas Ferriola/40
Gary Gagliano/71
Nicholas Guzzino/74
Rocco Lombardo/75
Michael Magnafichi/53
Michael Marcello/64
Dino Marino/57
Louis Marino/83
John Matassa, Jr./64
Lawrence Pettit/87
Michael Spano, Sr./75
Paul Spano/84
Anthony Spina/61
Christopher Spina/63
Michael Talarico/63
Raymond Tominello/75

Imprisoned Members:
Robert Bellavia/76 (05/01/2016)
Joseph Lombardo/86 (IP/L)
James Marcello/71 (IP/L)
Robert Salerno/81 (11/21/2024)
Michael Sarno/57 (10/25/2032)
Joseph Scalise/77 (05/28/2019)

Suspected Members Who Have Died Since 1998:
Donald Angelini (2000)
Dominick Basso (2001)
Carmine Bastone (2002)
Salvatore Bastone (1998)
Frank Bonavolante (2002)
Dominick Brancato (2005)
Frank Buccieri (2004)
Eugene Cacciatore (2000)
Marshall Caifano (2003)
Frank Calabrese, Sr. (2012)
Michael Castaldo (2005)
Anthony Centracchio (2001)
James Cerone (2012)
Anthony Chiaramonti (2001) (Murdered)
Dominic Cortina (1999)
Phillip Cozzo (2015)
James Vincent Cozzo (2007)
Charles DiCaro (2011)
James DiForti (2000)
Joseph Grieco (2013)
Ernest Rocco Infelise (2005)
Angelo LaPietra (1999)
Phillip Mesi (2001)
William Messino (2002)
John Monteleone (2001)
Bernard Morgano (2010)
Romeo Nappi (2001)
Dominick Palermo (2005)
Alfred Pilotto (1999)
Aldo Piscitelli (2013)
Fred Roti (1999)
Donald Scalise (2013)
Albert Tocco (2005)
Alfonso Tornabene (2009)
Anthony Zizzo (2006) (Disappeared/Presumed Murdered)

Members Who Have Flipped:
Victor Arrigo/Soldier (Dead/Never Testified)
Nicholas Calabrese/Soldier
Gerald Scarpelli/Soldier (Dead/Suicide/Recanted Testimony)

For the record. And for perspective I could give a **** what you think, I was just throwing a number out. I hope you were also, if not your number is 10 or more higher than it should be, even counting members doing life in prison in both families.

@ivyleague

chicago still has juice in the damn teamsters union

the difronzo's company did constrution chicago public schools (political corruption)

the grand avenue guys seem to be heavy into narcotics if they're robbing stash houses

the fact that illinois is still crooked will always help the outfit

@ Anybody
What do you guys think about this, seriously?



http://www.cbsnews.com/news/obama-union-pledge-raises-questions/





I honestly feel like it takes a Chicagoan to understand, cause you guys just kinda don't......

I think you're right about the late 1980s. Thanks for the correction.



When talking about the relative few narcotics cases, yes, because that's what they are. And this latest Grand Ave robbery crew bust is no different.



New England is one family too. So is what's left of the mob in Detroit. So what's your point?

Some have this idea that all the NY guys are tripping all over each other. These people are apparently unaware of just how big the greater NY metro area is. We're talking the 5 NYC boroughs, Long Island, Westchester and northern suburbs, Southwest Connecticut, and North-into-Central New Jersey. This area dwarfs the area in terms of mob territory anywhere else in the country. There's a reason it's always had 5 families - the 5 biggest families - and that's because it's big enough.

You can look at the gambling cases alone as a comparison. Those elsewhere in the country, including Chicago, are rather small compared to the ones in NY.



You talk as if the relatively small numbers in Chicago is all by design. While they have appeared to streamline their operations and downsize in order to have a smaller profile, attrition has been a big part of this. Anyone who thinks otherwise is in denial. People, including myself, were surprised at the most recent estimates by the feds - 25 to 30 members and a little over 100 associates spread across 4 crews at most.



Yes, we still see a dirty cop here or there get busted in Outfit cases. But it's certainly not "almost every" Chicago indictment and there's nowhere near the kind of widespread, institutional corruption like there used to be. And you can find similar examples of dirty cops getting busted here and there in NY as well. To argue for Outfit power based on an outdated idea of police influence isn't going to fly.



There's no evidence for that. Like I said, the drug cases involving Outfit guys at any level are few and far between. At best comparable to some of the other small families outside NY.



If you go down the list of Outfit related cases, many of those things you mentioned above are limited, ad-hoc ventures. Nowhere near the scope we saw in NY with the gas tax scam, phone card scam, pump and dump stock scams, real estate scams, telephone cramming and porn site scams, etc. The political and police corruption is also very limited and often based on speculation and innuendo.



I hear you. I have mixed feelings at best on it. People think I just live to get into these tired arguments but I dont. But when someone starts a thread with a post about the Outfit that is just chalk full of wrong or outdated info, what are we to do. No offense to the original poster but much of it was stuff we saw said about the Outfit on the forums a decade ago and I thought had been largely refuted.



Sounds a lot like NY if you ask me...


Affidavit of John J. O'Rourke, former FBI agent and Independent Hearing Officer Laborers Union of North America


15. The FBI maintains an inventory of members and associates of the Chicago Outfit.

16. The FBI defines a "made member" as a person who has participated in a formalized ceremony and has the right to share in the profits of the Chicago Outfit. A made member has the right to run his own street crew; to make loans known as "juice loans"; to extort "street tax" from local businesses and from gamblers and bookmakers; and to otherwise take control of gambling and bookmaking in his area. A made members is also entitled to the respect of other made members.

17. An "associate" of the Outfit is a person who works on behalf of a made member in the day-to-day activities of the Outfit such as collecting interest on juice loans; collecting street tax; contacting bookmakers; and settling debts. Other "associates" of the Outfit do not participate in the day-to-day criminal activities of Organized Crime but help facilitate these activities.

18. The FBI keeps an inventory of individuals who are associates or members of Organized Crime. In order for the FBI to categorize a person as a member or associate of Organized Crime, certain requirements must be met. Generally, those requirements are that two known made members are heard on a wiretap discussing another person as a made member; or that two known made members are heard discussing a third person as a made member, in the presence of an undercover FBI agent; or that two reliable organized crime informants independently identify a person as a made member.

http://www.ipsn.org/orourke_affidavit.php



It stands to reason that not all of those guys listed above are made if about 30 members has been the max cited by the FBI in recent years.

Also, that administration is largely speculation at this point. I'd wait for more concrete info besides some Internet blogs.



Take the Colombo family, which is generally considered to be the smallest family in NY. It is estimated to have about 100 members and approximately 500 associates.

I typically don't put a whole lot of stock in associate estimates but, for the sake of comparing apples to apples, look at the estimates for the Outfit. 30 members at most and a little over 100 associates.

So, a manpower of something like 600 for the Colombos and perhaps 150 for the Outfit. The smallest NY family being 4 times the size. Those figures for the Outfit are rather similar to estimates for the other remaining small families outside NY, just with the member-to-associate ratio being a little different.

In fact you would probably have too add up all the members left not only in Chicago but everywhere else outside the Northeast to come close to the size of the Colombos.

Perspective.

There isn't much left of the old Chicago crew. There are guys still around, but it's a complete joke compared to what it once was.

And yes, there are a few millionaires still around, but that doesn't mean the family is strong. Same thing with Detroit. I could go into more details, but Ivy has pretty much said it all.

Please share your infinite wisdom. With all these great details about how the Outfit is the same as Detroit. I think even Ivy agrees you are wrong there.

I never said those families were the same. What I'm saying is both of those families aren't strong. Even the weakest NY family is stronger than Chicago.

If you are talking about number of made men in the weakest New York family then your right. If you are talking about the actual power in the city they live in you are wrong. I don't see anyone in the upper echelon of the Outfit living in trailers and their wives on food stamps. Numbers don't always equal power. I don't underestimate New York like you do Chicago. New York has a huge numbers, and that helps with muscle but it also leads to more rats and longer sentences,and turnover in members. Is the Outfit huge, no not by any means, but its bigger than you are giving it credit for. Not to mention in Chicago almost anyone in politics is corruptible. That goes for a lot of police in the suburbs also.

Every Chicago case ad-hoc, Check. Too funny, like I said before, in New York they have to give a lot more people a taste of everything. In Chicago they only involve who they need to because they are not the size of New York. Spano,Sarno,Family Secrets, and the Panozzo crew had real police gear including badges, now they could have stole them out of a house but I doubt they where given the OK to rob a cops house.

If you are talking about number of made men in the weakest New York family then your right. If you are talking about the actual power in the city they live in you are wrong. I don't see anyone in the upper echelon of the Outfit living in trailers and their wives on food stamps. Numbers don't always equal power. I don't underestimate New York like you do Chicago. New York has a huge numbers, and that helps with muscle but it also leads to more rats and longer sentences,and turnover in members. Is the Outfit huge, no not by any means, but its bigger than you are giving it credit for. Not to mention in Chicago almost anyone in politics is corruptible. That goes for a lot of police in the suburbs also.

The political corruption in Chicago is so deep-rooted and ingrained with bloodlines and nepotism it will take years and years to dilute it.

When other posters say that Chicago "isn't like" the other LCN groups they are telling the truth. Think about Frank Schweihs, a German-Italian who basically ran the Grand Avenue crew on the street after Louie Eboli died and told other made guys (Mike Glitta) to "fuck themselves". Albeit on behalf of Joey Lombardo but I can't imagine that happening anywhere else but Chicago. In that sense, yes, it is very different than the other families.

Bigger than who is giving it credit for? We have the most recent estimates by the feds, which nobody here is on a position to argue with. Even if you want to differentiate when it comes to the importance of made guys in Chicago, whether they're still making members, etc, all you have to do is add the members and associates to get an overall picture of the Outfit's size and manpower. 25-30 members and a little over 100 associates. So perhaps 150 or so. Once again, to put that in perspective, that's similar to the other small families remaining outside NY.

[quote]Numbers can very much equal power. Would anyone argue there's no difference between a 200 member family and a 20 members family. Even more so, numbers provide durability and longevity. Carlos Marcello may have been very powerful in his day but where is the New Orleans mob now? Gone. And it's because they didn't have the numbers.

Also, we should be looking at overall trends and not one Colombo guy to make a point. I'm not bringing up Magnafichi being caught shoplifting four times in recent years.