And their bastards...

Yes that is Nazorine The Baker in the Don's office. I believe that the old man singing is HIS father. When we see that old man singing, look behind him and Mama and Nazorine the baker are standing there.


Don Cardi

What do you mean by their bastards?


Don Cardi

Well - when in GF3 they were short of characters, they couldn't come up with something better that inventing a bastard. Wait, and you'll see: in GF4 we shall be fed with Fredo's, Connie's and Michael's bastards. Maybe also Tom's, Neri's, Rocco's and Barzini's bastards - who knows. And Anthony will be bisexual, I bet!!!

10. Which Don was the old guy who sang at Connie’s wedding?


I believe it was Anthony Stracci, if im wrong then it might have been cuneo, but i think its stracci

About the song that was sung by the old man at Connie's wedding:

I heard that song sung all the time in my family but I never knew what it meant. I still don't know what the song means, but the way those people laughed at Connie's wedding, I can imagine that old man put some nasty into it! Do any of you Italian-speakers know the words to that song? I sure would like to know!

Thanks!

~~ Lollie

Why? I could never imagine Barzini doing something like that. So if Cuneo and Stracchi were so good friends, why did they had to be killed? Just killing Barzini and Tattaglia, as a warning should have been enough to intimidate Cuneo and Stracchi. No?

When in doubt, go to Geoff's site. Here's the English translation:

LA LUNA MEZZO 'O MARE (ENGLISH)

AND THE MOON IS IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SEA:
OH MY MOTHER I MUST GET MARRIED --
OH MY DAUGHTER WHO WILL WE GET?
MY MOTHER I LEAVE IT UP TO YOU.

(I)
IF I GET YOU THE BUTCHER
HE WILL COME AND HE WILL GO,
BUT HE'LL ALWAYS HOLD THE SAUSAGE IN HIS HANDS...
IF HE GETS A BRIGHT IDEA
HE'LL SAUSAGE YOU OH MY DAUGHTER.

(II)
IF I GET YOU THE FISHERMAN
HE WILL COME AND HE WILL GO,
BUT HE'LL ALWAYS HOLD THE FISH IN HIS HANDS...
IF HE GETS A BRIGHT IDEA
HE'LL FISH YOU OH MY DAUGHTER.

(III)
IF I GET YOU THE SHOEMAKER
HE WILL COME AND HE WILL GO,
BUT HE'LL ALWAYS HOLD THE SHOE IN HIS HANDS...
IF HE GETS A BRIGHT IDEA
HE'LL SHOE YOU OH MY DAUGHTER.

(IV)
IF I GET YOU THE GARDEN MAN
HE WILL COME AND HE WILL GO,
BUT HE'LL ALWAYS HOLD THE CUCUMBER IN HIS HANDS...
IF HE GETS A BRIGHT IDEA
HE'LL CUCUMBER YOU OH MY DAUGHTER.

Obviously the song is filled with double-entendres.

The only other one that Turnbull didn't list that has come up frequently is "who opened the drapes in Michael's bedroom?" Although that can be tied into the identity of who killed the Tahoe assassins.

Maybe Woody Allen opened the drapes cause he was jealous that someone else was sleeping with Diane Keaton

Just bumping a useful thread up because it's in danger of being lost to a 10 year search. I don't know if there's a more recent version.

Glad you did, Pete.

In the years since, Roth engineering Pentangeli's survival has all but disappeared. Who killed the Tahoe shooters is still up there. Better Don--Michael or Vito--is popular. But, I think the new Number One is: Did Fredo deserve to die, and/or did Fredo know it was gonna be a hit.

However TB, the one question that receives the least attention, but the answer to which holds the key to the questions and mysteries of the entire Trilogy is: why were Manolo's scenes cut from the films?

Oli, as has been stated here many times: Manolo's scenes were cut because he was a member of the Gardeners and Landscapers Union, which had no reciprocity with Actors Equity.

Ahhh! The no reciprocity reason. I see.

While this thread is 12 years old, I think its important to remember that, hopefully, there will always be new people coming on board. Many times they will ask or bring up topics that have been previously covered. Quite possibly there are individuals that were very young when this board got started. Suppose a person was 10 when this thread started. Most likely they were big fans of the films. Now they are around 22, and could have discovered this films and really want to know more.

Of course there are people like me that drift in and out of the forum.

Yes, I often use the search function to see if my questions have been asked before and occasionally bring back an ancient thread.

Could this thread be made permanently sticky as so it doesn't get lost..

Great thread

Done!

Since it's pinned now:

1. Yes. I don't see how they could get Frankie from the bar to a hospital or precinct to the Feds without leaving some kind of footprint that Frankie was alive, unless it was engineered and the people all along the chain were expecting Frankie.

2. Most likely candidate is Rocco, as part of a betrayal plot for which he was eventually punished with the hit on Roth. Dark horse candidate is Bussetta.

3. No. Connie was on to Michael from the start ("Read the papers!").

4. Mama, though I wish it were Apollonia's ghost.

5. Yes. Michael could have put Fredo in a mental institution and no one would have questioned him.

6. Sonny. If he had avoided the tollbooth, counseled by Tom and Vito Sonny would have developed into a formidable don.

7. I think so. Castellano would have wanted a meaty part - what else is there but betrayal?

8. Money.

9. Vito, although the book Michael at least takes some notice of the personal touch that movie Michael does not.

10. I don't think he's a don. I think he's the same old guy singing a dirty song who turns up at every Italian wedding.

Always enjoyable to see these questions revisited, Pete. As for whether or not Roth engineered Pentangeli's survival:

Roth's plan was to lure Michael to Cuba, get the $2 million, and have him assassinated in the small hours of January 1, 1959. Why would he try to engineer an incredibly dangerous, split-second-timed rescue of Frankie? So that Frankie would hate Michael and testify against him at a Senate hearing weeks or months away, by which time, according to Roth's Havana timetable, Michael would be long dead?

And if Roth did intend for Frankie to survive, how would he engineer it? Call his man in the precinct and say, "Listen, Shultz, I want you to send a patrolman to Richie's Bar--but make sure he gets there at 3:43 and 22 seconds--not 3:43 and ll seconds, or 3:43 and 28 seconds--3:43 and 22 seconds!. Got it? Let's coordinate watches..."

Or, suppose Roth was lurking outside in a phone booth. He'd have to call the local police precinct and say, "Hello, 87th Precinct? There's a ruckus going on in Richie's Bar. You better send someone--but don't send him until 3:43 and 22 seconds..."

It was pretty obvious that the cop who happened on the scene wasn't clued in on it. And, as we saw, he got shot in the melee afterward.

I don't think it's a problem to have Plan A and Plan B. Michael might not show up in Havana. If Roth died before Havana, he could go to Hell happy in the knowledge that his perjury trap was in place.



I think you're right about this, so I'd like to reverse my answer specifically with respect to Roth engineering the entry of the cop.

Still, I think Roth's engineering of the overall incident has to stand, because otherwise too many random people would have to not notice or not blab that Frankie was in police custody and being moved around.

Wait. The whole reason for Frankie testifying against Michael was Frankie's belief that Michael was behind Frankie's near murder. It was only a near murder because the policeman showed up, right? So, Roth intended for Frankie to die right there and then. If I am missing something, let me know.

I think Roth engineered the event to the extent that he conspired with the Rosatos to have Frankie assassinated at their meeting. He and the Rosatos were allies. He supported them in their beef against Frankie over the three allegedly promised territories in the Bronx (per Michael's meeting with Frankie in the boathouse during Anthony's party). Roth probably told them that if they whacked Frankie, they could take over the Corleones' NYC operation, and that he'd "take care of Michael." He probably didn't tell the Rosatos that he was going to have Michael whacked in Havana; perhaps he said Michael would go along with it as a condition of Roth turning his Havana operations over to him. But, Roth didn't--could not have--engineered Frankie's survival. That was strictly happenstance.

You make a good point about too many people knowing about Frankie's survival. Here I have to give FFC some "directorial license":

NYPD was first on the scene and arrested Frankie (Tom: "The NYC detective squad said Frankie was half dead, scared, talking out loud about how you betrayed him"). Frankie was inside the bar, not out in the street where the shootout took place. Perhaps the detectives, seeing that Frankie was ready to rat out Mr. Big, thought it would be in everyone's best interest to keep Frankie's survival secret, the better to protect him against Michael trying to silence him, and to get more info out of him.

The "directorial license" part is how the Senate subcommittee managed to wheedle Frankie away from NYPD. A stretch-guess: The Senate subcommittee already had hearings scheduled on organized crime, and was planning to call Michael as a witness. Roth, through Questad, had the Senate subcommittee chair appeal to NYC's mayor to have NYPD give up Frankie to the subcommittee. The promise would have been that the subcommittee had a far better chance of connecting Michael, through Frankie's testimony, to a greater range of crimes (i.e., running all the gambling in America) than were covered by NYPD's jurisdiction.

One problem is that if everything isn't coordinated, then the Rosatos are going to be trying to figure out where Frankie is, which again would leave some sort of trail for the Corleones to follow.



The fact that Frankie was willing to talk would necessarily bring the feds in, right? I realize they didn't have a formal witness protection program, but they did stuff like that on an ad hoc basis and the the FBI and Justice Department would have to sign off on all of it to give Frankie meaningful immunity.

I don't find any challenge to the Justice Department taking Frankie into custody since his alleged criminal activities would have crossed state lines. Of course, he would have to respond to a Committee subpoena.

How about

Why the HELL did Vito send Luca, his most trusted and loyal adviser to pretend he's betrayed the family. I mean - ANYONE but him surely???

We had a nice discussion about that question here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...true#Post444618

Answer to number nine. Vito. Without a doubt. And, here is my rational.

Machiavelli was the most famous Consigliere of all time. He, first, worked for the Families that ran Florence then, after their defeat at the hands of the Medici armies, he wrote his most famous work "The Prince" in an attempt to keep his position under the new rulers. His gift, of a manual on how to take and maintain power, was accepted, and he was promptly exiled to the far north, where he lived out his life writing satirical theatrical works.

Now, I'm paraphrasing here but, as I recall, one of his most famous lines went something like this:

"There are two ways to rule a people. One is through love. The other is through fear. It is far better to be loved, because you can always become feared. However, once you are feared, you will never again be loved."

Vito was beloved. Remember when he asks Genco about Fanucci, and is indignant about how he preys on other Italians? And, later, when he kills him. Of course, he does it for his own gain but, it is also for the neighborhood. Nobody knows he did it, but word gets around, and everybody believes it. And, they love him for it.

Later, with the landlord, who has never heard of him, and with whom he tries to reason from moralistic-humanistic positions, to no avail. He tells him to ask around the neighborhood about him. Instilling fear. The landlord will never love him. But, the rest of the neighborhood will love him even more.

Michael? Only his direct family love him. His capos respect him and as, Tessio says "like" him, but love? Nope. And, most of his family dies, one after the other. Even his wife finally leaves him, feeling "no love" for him.

It was the dual trauma of Sonny's death, followed by that of Apollonia, that pushed him irrevocably to the dark side. Some might say it was the murder of Sollozzo and McCluskey, but I believe his love for Apollonia brought him back from the brink. She even made him laugh un-cynically (remember their driving lesson), but he never would again.

No more love. Only fear.

All that said, I have an eleventh question:

Where is the house that stood in for Don Ciccio's villa?

I read that Puzo based The Corleone Family on The Borgias. The similarities are very interesting...
http://mudmosh.com/the-borgias-the-original-crime-family-inspired-the-godfather/