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Re: Why didn't Tony just let Junior be Boss?
[Re: JackieAprile]
#892819
09/04/16 03:10 PM
09/04/16 03:10 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,461
Green Grove Retirement Communi...
OakAsFan
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I think they were trying to mimic what was going on in the Decavalcante family around that time. This should seem very familiar to Sopranos fans, from wikipedia:
" Riggi continued to run the family from his jail cell, but he appointed Giacomo "Jake" Amari as his new acting boss. All was seemingly settled until Amari became ill and died slowly of stomach cancer in 1997. This caused a massive power vacuum within the family, with high-ranking members pushing to become the next boss of the DeCavalcante crime family.
The Ruling Panel
After acting boss Amari's death, Riggi organized a three-man ruling panel in 1998 to run the day-to-day business of the crime family,[13] consisting of Girolamo Palermo, Vincent Palermo (no relation), and Charles Majuri,[14] with Stefano Vitabile as the reputed consigliere and adviser to the three.
The Panel, however, infuriated longtime captain Charles Majuri, who had been a hardworking member of the family since his teens and felt that he was wronged when he was not selected as the only acting boss.[14] To gain complete control of the DeCavalcante family, Majuri decided that he should murder Vincent Palermo, leaving himself in charge of the family.[14] Majuri contracted soldier James Gallo to murder Vincent Palermo; however, Gallo was a strong ally and friend of Vincent Palermo's, and told him about Majuri's plans.[14] In retaliation, Vincent Palermo decided to have Majuri murdered. However, after one plot fell through, the murder was eventually called off.[14]"
"...the successful annihilation of organized crime's subculture in America would rock the 'legitimate' world's foundation, which would ultimately force fundamental social changes and redistributions of wealth and power in this country. Meyer Lansky's dream was to bond the two worlds together so that one could not survive without the other." - Dan E. Moldea
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Re: Why didn't Tony just let Junior be Boss?
[Re: OakAsFan]
#892828
09/04/16 04:15 PM
09/04/16 04:15 PM
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
JackieAprile
OP
Capo
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
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Yes, but the way Chase wrote it doesn't make sense.
Junior is the "front boss". Tony is supposedly the "real Boss"
yet, Junior is making all the decisions (for example, taxing Hesh, no unsanctioned card games). Tony and the other Capos have to kick up to him, even if it isn't as much as they kicked up to Jackie, it still was a hit from their wallets and it had to be a realistic amount.
Plus, if Tony's the "real Boss", wouldn't the other Capos have to kick up to him as well? I can't see that sitting too well.
Junior - de facto boss, boss in name only - would still be the Feds' lightning rod.
So, basically, the arrangement makes no logical sense. Tony doesn't show any signs of being "the real Boss". They kick up to Junior. They have to obey his edicts. So, how is it any different from him being the 'real' Boss?
It's a plot point to create conflict, but in actual terms, it makes no sense.
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Re: Why didn't Tony just let Junior be Boss?
[Re: DonKostic]
#892851
09/04/16 09:26 PM
09/04/16 09:26 PM
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
JackieAprile
OP
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But Junior WAS the de facto boss in Season 1. He had full power, Tony was just the one the capos went to complain to. The whole "official boss/front boss" arrangement with Tony started after Junior got arrested, and Tony took over his operations and ran him out of business, leaving him with just 5% of everything. The entire point of why Tony didn't want to be boss right away is so that Feds concentrate on Junior instead of him, even after Junior was in custody - it's better if the Feds think they have the Boss himself and not just a capo, though that didn't exactly work out as they quickly found out that Tony is the front boss. At Jackie's burial, Tony says "He thinks he's the King of Kings. Truth is every decision is made by me" in front of the other Capos as well as Hesh, And then when he goes behind his uncle's back to get Johnny Sack involved in Junior's taxing of Hesh, Johnny says, "So you are still running things." Also, when the Feds bring Junior in and try to flip him at the end of Season 1, he tells him that he was allowed to earn, and allowed the title, but he "did not make policy and was not in the New York loop." However, to Hesh he says he doesn't want to become Boss, let Junior die of the stress, that's what gave Jackie the cancer.
Last edited by JackieAprile; 09/04/16 09:27 PM.
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Re: Why didn't Tony just let Junior be Boss?
[Re: JackieAprile]
#894085
09/17/16 12:51 PM
09/17/16 12:51 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
SinatraClub
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Posts: 1,841
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Where'd you get that Tony and everyone was kicking up to Junior? Junior only got the kick up's from the rackets he controlled , that was the deal he and Tony made after Jackie died and Tony walked into Juniors social club and told him he wanted Junior to be boss. Tony only controlled two rackets at the time, but they were the major money makers for the DiMeo Crime Family, which they were a part of, which was Barone Sanitation and I think webistics, not sure. Junior's main racket was the cocaine, I think, and he merely got a percentage from one or two routes of Barrone, because when they're hugging and talking this all out , Junior kind of hesitates to agree to Tony's demands, but agrees ultimately because he was finally "the boss", which is all Junior ever really wanted.
More evidence that everyone wasnt kicking up to Junior , is after Chris is back on the streets after being kidnapped by the Russians on Juniors orders and after Mikey Palmice whacks Brendan, Chris goes to get the money from the "yo-yo" for the drugs that he's being given to sell by the DiMeo's through Tony and Chris. And thats when "Yo-Yo" tells Chris that he didnt have the money, because he got a visit from Juniors guys, which they told him, that "from now on everything goes to Junior", thus he gave all the money to Junior basically. Chris proceeds to beat him up, robs him, and goes back and relays the message to Tony. If everyone was kicking up to Junior, then wouldnt he have already been getting that money? Granted this is all while Jackie is dying in the hospital. And even with the Hesh situation, Junior never gets the original amount of money he approached Hesh for, Hesh goes to Tony, who then goes to Johnny Sack and they basically manipulate the whole situation to Hesh & Tony's advantage and Junior doesnt know anything about it , and in order to get Junior to fall for everything , they spend the whole meeting stroking his ego. That was Juniors biggest weakness, his ego. You could basically manipulate him in any situation by stroking his ego. And when Junior was boss, in title, Tony wasn't a Capo, he was the Street Boss, as seen in the FBI chart , which they rearrange after Jackie dies.
Last edited by SinatraClub; 09/17/16 12:51 PM.
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Re: Why didn't Tony just let Junior be Boss?
[Re: SinatraClub]
#897944
11/08/16 04:59 PM
11/08/16 04:59 PM
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,113
Ted
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 1,113
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Where'd you get that Tony and everyone was kicking up to Junior? Junior only got the kick up's from the rackets he controlled , that was the deal he and Tony made after Jackie died and Tony walked into Juniors social club and told him he wanted Junior to be boss. Tony only controlled two rackets at the time, but they were the major money makers for the DiMeo Crime Family, which they were a part of, which was Barone Sanitation and I think webistics, not sure. Junior's main racket was the cocaine, I think, and he merely got a percentage from one or two routes of Barrone, because when they're hugging and talking this all out , Junior kind of hesitates to agree to Tony's demands, but agrees ultimately because he was finally "the boss", which is all Junior ever really wanted.
More evidence that everyone wasnt kicking up to Junior , is after Chris is back on the streets after being kidnapped by the Russians on Juniors orders and after Mikey Palmice whacks Brendan, Chris goes to get the money from the "yo-yo" for the drugs that he's being given to sell by the DiMeo's through Tony and Chris. And thats when "Yo-Yo" tells Chris that he didnt have the money, because he got a visit from Juniors guys, which they told him, that "from now on everything goes to Junior", thus he gave all the money to Junior basically. Chris proceeds to beat him up, robs him, and goes back and relays the message to Tony. If everyone was kicking up to Junior, then wouldnt he have already been getting that money? Granted this is all while Jackie is dying in the hospital. And even with the Hesh situation, Junior never gets the original amount of money he approached Hesh for, Hesh goes to Tony, who then goes to Johnny Sack and they basically manipulate the whole situation to Hesh & Tony's advantage and Junior doesnt know anything about it , and in order to get Junior to fall for everything , they spend the whole meeting stroking his ego. That was Juniors biggest weakness, his ego. You could basically manipulate him in any situation by stroking his ego. And when Junior was boss, in title, Tony wasn't a Capo, he was the Street Boss, as seen in the FBI chart , which they rearrange after Jackie dies. You are messing up the entire timeline of the season 1 and 2. Tony started the show as a capo who was basically running things while Jackie was fighting caner. When Jackie died, Junior made his power play by killing Brandan and moving in on on Tony (by taking Yo Yo Mendez's kickup money). After that, Tony and Junior settle their beef by letting Junior become boss. All the capos agreed to let Junior have his day so he can be the focus of the FBI. Despite Tony running things behind his back, Junior was still the actual boss of the family. He named Mikey his consig, taxed Hesh and ordered hits. He wasn't a front boss or anything. It's only after Junior gets arrested that Tony takes over and lets Junior be a front boss while Tony is acting/street boss. Junior even tells Tony in one episode "I'm still the boss off this family despite what arrangements have been made."
"I die outside; I die in jail. It don't matter to me," -John Franzese
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Re: Why didn't Tony just let Junior be Boss?
[Re: JackieAprile]
#901314
12/11/16 09:42 AM
12/11/16 09:42 AM
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385
Tampa, FL
waynethegame
Capo
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Capo
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385
Tampa, FL
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Another thing is you have to basically discount the Pilot episode, since that made it clear Tony was THE boss, and was retconned afterwards to be what is basically the Underboss; he seems to be higher than just a capo (although probably in the hierarchy is a capo) but that could just be because the focus of the series was on him so he had to be made to do more than he should.
I think when Junior became the boss, for all the reasons stated (placate him, make him the focus so when things crash down it's "not a young man with a family" etc.) Tony becomes what is basically the Underboss, but he still defers to Junior (see: Hesh) but does his own things to manipulate because he's the guy everyone else goes to with problems.
Junior technically remains the boss, on paper at least, until probably his dementia starts to kick in. Just that Tony handles all the day to day affairs so is the boss in name only, but never actually became the boss, he's always the Underboss/Street Boss who just takes care of everything like the boss.
Wayne
"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger."
Don Lucchesi
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Re: Why didn't Tony just let Junior be Boss?
[Re: JackieAprile]
#901392
12/11/16 10:39 PM
12/11/16 10:39 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,461
Green Grove Retirement Communi...
OakAsFan
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Underboss
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Posts: 4,461
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From David Chase's interviews it's obvious he wanted the show to primarily be about a mobster who had a bizarre falling out with is own mother, as David Chase himself didn't have a good relationship with his mother, and wanted the mobster to be in therapy (this was before Analyze This). He wanted the mobster to be based in Jersey because that's where he's from. He used the real Jersey mob as a basis for the mob drama that took place while this lead character was going through problems with his family. The show was never intended to be a reenactment of the DeCavalcante family, or to accurately follow the mob's flow chart or protocol. All that stuff is background noise. It's about a mobster from a strange family in Jersey. If you watch it that way, it's easier to enjoy. If you put it to the smell test of what the real mob is like, you probably won't like it. There's a ton of stuff that happens on this show that would never happen in the mob. A lot of it seemed real because David Chase got some of the best writers, not to mention the best mob actors, together. It just worked. It's a great show but it's not intended to be an accurate portrayal of the mob.
Last edited by OakAsFan; 12/11/16 10:41 PM.
"...the successful annihilation of organized crime's subculture in America would rock the 'legitimate' world's foundation, which would ultimately force fundamental social changes and redistributions of wealth and power in this country. Meyer Lansky's dream was to bond the two worlds together so that one could not survive without the other." - Dan E. Moldea
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Re: Why didn't Tony just let Junior be Boss?
[Re: Ted]
#901404
12/12/16 12:14 AM
12/12/16 12:14 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
SinatraClub
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,841
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Where'd you get that Tony and everyone was kicking up to Junior? Junior only got the kick up's from the rackets he controlled , that was the deal he and Tony made after Jackie died and Tony walked into Juniors social club and told him he wanted Junior to be boss. Tony only controlled two rackets at the time, but they were the major money makers for the DiMeo Crime Family, which they were a part of, which was Barone Sanitation and I think webistics, not sure. Junior's main racket was the cocaine, I think, and he merely got a percentage from one or two routes of Barrone, because when they're hugging and talking this all out , Junior kind of hesitates to agree to Tony's demands, but agrees ultimately because he was finally "the boss", which is all Junior ever really wanted.
More evidence that everyone wasnt kicking up to Junior , is after Chris is back on the streets after being kidnapped by the Russians on Juniors orders and after Mikey Palmice whacks Brendan, Chris goes to get the money from the "yo-yo" for the drugs that he's being given to sell by the DiMeo's through Tony and Chris. And thats when "Yo-Yo" tells Chris that he didnt have the money, because he got a visit from Juniors guys, which they told him, that "from now on everything goes to Junior", thus he gave all the money to Junior basically. Chris proceeds to beat him up, robs him, and goes back and relays the message to Tony. If everyone was kicking up to Junior, then wouldnt he have already been getting that money? Granted this is all while Jackie is dying in the hospital. And even with the Hesh situation, Junior never gets the original amount of money he approached Hesh for, Hesh goes to Tony, who then goes to Johnny Sack and they basically manipulate the whole situation to Hesh & Tony's advantage and Junior doesnt know anything about it , and in order to get Junior to fall for everything , they spend the whole meeting stroking his ego. That was Juniors biggest weakness, his ego. You could basically manipulate him in any situation by stroking his ego. And when Junior was boss, in title, Tony wasn't a Capo, he was the Street Boss, as seen in the FBI chart , which they rearrange after Jackie dies. You are messing up the entire timeline of the season 1 and 2. Tony started the show as a capo who was basically running things while Jackie was fighting caner. When Jackie died, Junior made his power play by killing Brandan and moving in on on Tony (by taking Yo Yo Mendez's kickup money). After that, Tony and Junior settle their beef by letting Junior become boss. All the capos agreed to let Junior have his day so he can be the focus of the FBI. Despite Tony running things behind his back, Junior was still the actual boss of the family. He named Mikey his consig, taxed Hesh and ordered hits. He wasn't a front boss or anything. It's only after Junior gets arrested that Tony takes over and lets Junior be a front boss while Tony is acting/street boss. Junior even tells Tony in one episode "I'm still the boss off this family despite what arrangements have been made." What I got mixed up was the cocaine part, and Barone, that was Junior & Ritchie from season 2. Everything else is from season one and pretty much happened in the order I explained. Except you're right, Tony did start as a capo, when Jackie died, it's the Capo that gets crossed out and then they write street boss under Tony's tag.
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Re: Why didn't Tony just let Junior be Boss?
[Re: JCrusher]
#902101
12/18/16 06:55 AM
12/18/16 06:55 AM
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
JackieAprile
OP
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Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
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It shows what type of snake Tony is. In season 1 he claims to "love and respect" Junior yet he was setting him up to get arrested even before Junior decided to put a hit on him. Tony always wanted to be the boss "We all agreed...Let [Junior] be the lightning rod, that when lightning strikes, God forbid, it's not a young man with a family." Such love. Junior had every right to whack Tony, and he knew it, and that's why he forgave him. I can think of no greater act of disrespect, or no greater lack of love, than setting your uncle, who was like a father to you, up to take the hits from the Feds. If Tony had said, "Fuck it. Let Junior have the chair. He's old. Let 'em have it" to the other Capos, they would've listened. And if he didn't go trying to run things behind Junior's back, he would've never had a beef with Junior. Would've saved a lot of bad blood and kept a few interesting characters alive. It was inevitable given that Junior was 70 he'd either die or end up in jail, so why not let the old guy have his day?
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Re: Why didn't Tony just let Junior be Boss?
[Re: JackieAprile]
#902148
12/18/16 08:31 PM
12/18/16 08:31 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,098
JCrusher
Underboss
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,098
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It shows what type of snake Tony is. In season 1 he claims to "love and respect" Junior yet he was setting him up to get arrested even before Junior decided to put a hit on him. Tony always wanted to be the boss "We all agreed...Let [Junior] be the lightning rod, that when lightning strikes, God forbid, it's not a young man with a family." Such love. Junior had every right to whack Tony, and he knew it, and that's why he forgave him. I can think of no greater act of disrespect, or no greater lack of love, than setting your uncle, who was like a father to you, up to take the hits from the Feds. If Tony had said, "Fuck it. Let Junior have the chair. He's old. Let 'em have it" to the other Capos, they would've listened. And if he didn't go trying to run things behind Junior's back, he would've never had a beef with Junior. Would've saved a lot of bad blood and kept a few interesting characters alive. It was inevitable given that Junior was 70 he'd either die or end up in jail, so why not let the old guy have his day? Exactly. Tony always harped on "respect" but he never showed respect to his mentors. Hell even fecch la manna. The main reason IMO he set up feech was because he was jealous of him because he had so much respect from the family especially Chris. Even Richie Aprile. Tony admitted he hated having to pay for his meals when he was a younger gangster so that explains why he sided with Beansie(a mere associate) instead of Richie
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