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Kay's abortion #894509
09/21/16 12:42 PM
09/21/16 12:42 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

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Kay angrily confronted Michael with aborting her male fetus, sending him into a violent rage. An abortion was credible, even though abortion was illegal in the US until after Roe v. Wade (1973). Any woman with some money (probably ~$500 in 1958-59) could have gotten an abortion by a real doctor in a clinical setting—and Kay had plenty of money. But, I’m wondering if Kay really did have an abortion—or if she had a miscarriage, and called it an abortion to get back at Michael for all the lies and disappointments he’d inflicted on her:

--Any doctor performing an abortion on Mrs. Michael Corleone knew he’d be putting himself in mortal danger. And, there’d be no way he could hide his identity. Kay was confined to the Tahoe compound, so he’d have to do it there; or, if Kay insisted on going to her doctor’s office or a hospital, she’d have been accompanied by Tom and/or an army of bodyguards.
--“It was a boy!” Kay hissed at Michael, adding that she would never “bring another one of your sons into this world.” Kay was only three months pregnant, as Tom told Michael, and amniocentesis was unknown in the US at the time. There is no way Kay could have known for sure that the aborted fetus was male.
--She also said she did “an unholy thing,” perhaps mocking the Catholic faith that she had converted to after marrying Michael.

What do you think: abortion? Or miscarriage, vengefully misrepresented by Kay as abortion?









Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #894566
09/21/16 09:21 PM
09/21/16 09:21 PM
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Texas
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olivant Offline
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I think it was a miscarriage. Kay's resentment (livid anger) over Michael's endangering the family was definitely manifest on the night of the assassination attempt. When they were dancing that night she reminded him about his failed family legitimacy plan. He asked about the baby's gender and she answered him. So, she knew just how to hurt him. She miscarried and drove the knife home with the abortion claim.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #894673
09/22/16 05:09 PM
09/22/16 05:09 PM
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North America
Mr. Blonde Offline
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Great argument, Turnbull. Strong enough to convince me you are correct.

One other point in favor of it being a miscarriage is that something truly egregious needed to happen in order for Michael to "allow" her to leave. In fact, it is not out of the question that Kay came up with the abortion story then and there, during that very conversation, when Michael said he could never allow Kay to leave. His exact words were "Kay what do you want from me? Do you expect me to let you go? Do you expect me to let me take my children from me? Don't you know me? Don't you know that that's an impossibility -- that that could never happen. That I would use all my power to keep something like that from happening -- don't you know that?" At that point, she may have seen a ruse as her only way out.

The only arguments to the contrary I immediately see are;

Falsifying an abortion when divorce was imminent could easily negatively affect her in a divorce court of that era in regards to child custody. It shouldn't, but it could be an indicator of one not being a safe custodian through the antiquated reasoning of the day. Plus, an abortion then was an illegal act (preposterous, I know, to contrast that with the actions of a mafia don) and could be held as further grounds to deny her custody.

A lesser argument is at no time did she ever admit to the deception. This, while noteworthy, does not convince me of much. What good would it have done to admit it, either shortly after the statement was made or decades after the fact? She may not be believed, it would reopen old wounds, and would not serve any positive purpose.

Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Mr. Blonde] #894705
09/22/16 10:27 PM
09/22/16 10:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
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AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
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Well said, Mr. B. smile

In fact, Kay did lose custody--we saw that near the end of GFII, when Connie was rushing her out of her visitation with the kids, and she ran into the Dreaded Corleone Stare. The divorce may already have been final by that time--Nevada was one of only two states that granted quickie divorces at that time (Idaho was the other). Divorce courts then and now routinely grant custody to the mother, except if the mother can be proven to be mentally, physically or morally "deficient." Kay's divorce would have been grounds for "moral deficiency" in those days, and given Michael's money, influence and fear factor, a judge would have readily granted him custody.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #894706
09/22/16 10:44 PM
09/22/16 10:44 PM
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Texas
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olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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The children were in the New York hotel hallway; she's arguing with Michael. She leaves and takes the kids. Where do they go? Nevada? New Hampshire? Where did she file for divorce? Nevada? Probably not. Michael's face was center stage during the Senate hearings and there's no evidence that Kay had an abortion. She had a miscarriage. It's confusing as usual.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #894724
09/23/16 08:11 AM
09/23/16 08:11 AM
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Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz Offline
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I can't imagine that Michael would ever have allowed his personal business to be aired in divorce court, and Kay surely knew that.

They must have made a private arrangement - something along the lines of Kay being granted a divorce in exchange for Michael getting primary custody (at least for a while - they did end up with Kay eventually).

Kay might not have really objected to that. As much as she wanted them out of the Mafia environment, there was always the chance the children would be targets for Michael's enemies. They would be safer on the compound.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Kay's abortion [Re: The Last Woltz] #894726
09/23/16 08:46 AM
09/23/16 08:46 AM
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Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz Offline
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While the miscarriage angle makes for an interesting theory, I think Kay really had an abortion.

While it might not have been possible to tell the sex of a baby at three months, that can be chalked up to director's license. It would be uncharacteristically foolish for Kay's to rely on something medically impossible for her coup de grace against Michael.

As for logistics, in an earlier version of the script, Kay is able to escape (under the guise of boating with a neighbor) and return to her parents' home in New Hampshire. On her home turf, it wouldn't be hard for her to find a doctor either unaware of who she is or willing to take a risk for her.

Also, if it's just a miscarriage, that denies Kay much of her agency. Rather than a strong character taking control of her situation, she would just be a vengeful, opportunistic liar. Kay is a strong character and I think the abortion scenario better fits her story arc.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #894728
09/23/16 09:46 AM
09/23/16 09:46 AM
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mustachepete Offline
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I'm doubtful that Kay had an abortion. If she was trying to end "this Sicilian thing," logically she would also have to murder her first son, whose closest companions were all gangsters.

This would have made for a marvelous alternate ending: Kay induces Michael to serve as patron of the fledgling Reno Opera Society. For their gala premier, a performance of Cherubini's "Medea," Michael quietly arranges for Kay to sing the title role to rave reviews. He is quite surprised when, in the third act, Kay murders his children onstage to thunderous applause, as the audience all think that it's part of the show.


Last edited by mustachepete; 09/23/16 09:53 AM.

"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #894733
09/23/16 10:32 AM
09/23/16 10:32 AM
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Past caring, then hang a left
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helenwheels Offline
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Past caring, then hang a left
Just throwing this out there- Kate wouldn't have necessarily needed a doctor to do the abortion.

Women have been performing various methods of self abortion since there have been people on this planet. While dangerous, they were once fairly common, i.e. botanical abortifacients, insertion of objects in to the uterus, etc.

Last edited by helenwheels; 09/23/16 10:33 AM.

All God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.


I never met anyone who didn't have a very smart child. What happens to these children, you wonder, when they reach adulthood?



Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #894740
09/23/16 12:24 PM
09/23/16 12:24 PM
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Texas
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olivant Offline
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So, Kay doesn't know if her child is male or female, right? But because she wants to end the Sicilian thing, she takes a chance that it's a son?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Kay's abortion [Re: olivant] #894742
09/23/16 12:37 PM
09/23/16 12:37 PM
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The Last Woltz Offline
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Originally Posted By: olivant
So, Kay doesn't know if her child is male or female, right? But because she wants to end the Sicilian thing, she takes a chance that it's a son?


Why do you assume she didn't know? In the film she makes very clear that she did know, and it's very clear that Michael believed her.

Just because Tom makes an offhand comment about "three and a half months" doesn't seem to me to be a strong argument in favor of a miscarriage.

Maybe Tom was wrong about when the baby was conceived. Maybe one of Michael's forays into the legitimate world was in cutting-edge obstretrical technology. Maybe FFC didn't really think obsessed fans like us would parse the films to this extent to come up with theories.

All of those make more sense than Kay making up a medically impossible story and Michael buying it. (OK, my second theory makes less sense.)


Last edited by The Last Woltz; 09/23/16 12:37 PM.

"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: Kay's abortion [Re: The Last Woltz] #894775
09/23/16 05:45 PM
09/23/16 05:45 PM
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olivant Offline
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She commented to Michael while dancing that it felt like a boy.

Last edited by olivant; 09/23/16 05:47 PM.

"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #964633
02/24/19 06:11 AM
02/24/19 06:11 AM
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Capri Offline
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Biggest hypocrite

Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #964763
02/25/19 06:36 PM
02/25/19 06:36 PM
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Trojan Offline
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Originally Posted by Lana
Kay's abortion Following on similar thread

My take, for what it is worth!

I too believe, it was a miscarriage [caused by the bedroom shooting trauma]

If it was an abortion [unconvincing indeed] Neri undoubtedly could / would have made discreet inquiries “to hunt down the doctor” who dared to abort Michael Corleone's child and the doctor would be sleeping with the fishes

From what we saw in the movie -
1. Kay told Michael, when they were dancing at Anthony's party [they seemed happy and Kay sounded genuine] the baby felt like a boy
2. Kay was a virtual prisoner at the Tahoe estate while Michael was away

If Kay wanted / needed to see her Obstetrician / Gynaecologist, agree, Tom would either have arranged a home visit to Tahoe or Kay would have been escorted to the medical clinic and escorted straight back to Tahoe, after the consultation

No doctor especially the family doctor would dare perform an abortion on Michael Corleone's wife
They would “realize what will happen as a result” of aborting Michael Corleone's child – sleeping with the fishes

I doubt there would have been any divorce/child custody hearing [Kay didn't seem to have any visitation rights even] as Michael would “use all his power to keep something like that from happening”

I reckon Kay never lost the baby!
The baby was born away from Michael and turned up as Vincent in Godfather 3
No wonder he was readily accepted and fast-tracked to Don Corleone

Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Trojan] #1039602
08/31/22 11:17 PM
08/31/22 11:17 PM
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Kangaroo Don Offline
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Australia
Ref: my above post in the below thread
Did anyone else notice that .......
Michael didn't ask the tough question! - How did Kay get the abortion?

What is even more ridiculous! than Kay getting the supposed 'abortion'....Michael buying Kay's "impossible" story
And a man in Michael's position can't afford to be made to look ridiculous!

Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #1039610
09/01/22 07:59 AM
09/01/22 07:59 AM
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No. Virginia
mustachepete Offline
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It seems the abortion angle was suggested by Talia Shire (edit: at around 1:10:00):

https://youtu.be/Xd71uVNlbLs

It may explain why the idea doesn't seem completely explored by Coppola and Puzo.

Last edited by mustachepete; 09/01/22 08:00 AM.

"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: Kay's abortion [Re: mustachepete] #1039653
09/01/22 11:06 PM
09/01/22 11:06 PM
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Australia
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Kangaroo Don Offline
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Nobody Pete nobody! “completely explores” Godfather like we do!

As dramatic effects go, the 'abortion' is up there indeed and we would have missed out on -

Did anyone else notice that .......
Originally Posted by Lana
Extract: Al Pacino was phenomenal in the Hotel Washington abortion scene indeed

The tempestuous changes in Michael's demeanour from the moment Kay said “The children are outside We are going” was terrifying! to watch

Michael's eyes blazing with fury travelling up and down Kay's stomach where the 'son' had been, lower lip quivering, finally losing control and slapping Kay

and Talia Shire's reward Godmother! in Godfather III

Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #1041254
10/05/22 06:05 AM
10/05/22 06:05 AM
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Geekboy145 Offline
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I always wondered how in the hell could she have gotten an abortion without Tom or somebody else knowing. You KNOW Michael had to have done some kind of investigation into that.

Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #1041292
10/05/22 06:28 PM
10/05/22 06:28 PM
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Over Here < < in TX
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Knowing Michael's lust for vengeance, I'm surprised he didn't have the person that performed the abortion, the murder of his child, eliminated.


"It's nothing personal, Sonny....... It's strictly business."


Re: Kay's abortion [Re: Turnbull] #1043605
11/12/22 06:32 PM
11/12/22 06:32 PM
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JCrusher Offline
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I’ve always felt it was a miscarriage but Kay knew the only way to truly end it with Michael was to claim it was an abortion. I’m sure she also knew it would be difficult to find a doctor willing to do it as well as being basically under house arrest at the compound. The only way is if she did it herself which would be extremely dangerous


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