I think that tony biggest mistake was when he didn't got invovled in the conflict between little carmine and john, he should have taken carmine side and help him against johnny.
I mean johnny is smart and have big ego, and that make him dangerous.
And carmine is more a peacefull guy and and stupid who could be easily manipulated when needed, so tony should have taken is side so carmine could be the boss and thourgh him tony would control ny too

If he would have killed john and then the end would have been so much diffrenet.
He should have act like he stays neutrul and not taking any side, and arrange a hit on john and phil and butch, without even telling carmine or his own captains, only telling chris and maybe sil to arrange it it get over it.

Why would he want to align himself with someone nobody respected and who most considered a joke in Little Carmine?

I would think aligning yourself with someone who as you put it as "Peaceful and Stupid" won't get you very far in that life.

He already had a great working relationship with Johnny Sac who had the respect and power in New York.

It may have been a mistake to remain neutral but siding with Little Carmine would have been a terrible move. They both would be fixing wet t-shirt contests.

well we all know what happen when tony kept his relationship with johnny and then with phil...
besides i mean that tony would control carmine and would run things thourgh him, because of the fact that he is stupid.

Oakasfan i am waiting for your comment

Meyer I understand your thought about trying to run things through Carmine because he's stupid and doesn't know any better or not tough enough to do anything about it.

But does Tony really have enough power to control a NY family through a puppet? Would the Captains in the Lupertazi family really allow a figurehead boss that no one respects to be run by New Jersey who most in NY don't respect either?

I don't see that happening.

Carmine had jerry basile angelo garepe (not a capo, but well respected member)and of course rusy as a supporters capos.
So maybe more capos would have to except that he is the boss and that's it.
Haha but that's just my thought so sm i right Or i am completely wrong ?!

And for if tony have the power ?
Well he run things at younger age at is father crew...
Then when he was capo at season 1 he made is uncle a dummy boss.
Then he stood up to carmine in all the asplent bullshit.
So i guess he knows how to be a leader and have the power and enough brain to control NY by having carmine as a boss.

Letting those two douchebags in the Webistics scam become associates, or, letting Christopher allow them to. If he'd just used those guys as front men, with their skills and education in finance, Webistics might have worked. Of course Puss turned it over to the feds anyway.

Tony's biggest problem was his ego. In fairness, I feel nearly every beef could have been settled in Jersey's favor for the sake of the show, however, rarely was for the sake of Tony's inability to reign people in or reach realistic common ground.

I've never quite agreed with the idea that Tony was a pragmatist. Johnny Sac as indicated was always a pragmatic strategist before he became Boss. Tony is labelled similarly by the show, yet I've never felt the same about his decisions. Some were very smooth, but many were marred by too much emotional judgment.

*He chiseled Junior's pockets until the day he died. Had he continued to placate his uncle, the murder attempts would not have escalated.

*He allowed emotion to cloud judgement with Ralph. He turned the North Jersey mafia into a popularity contest and killed his best earner for being generally creepy and off putting. Surely there are dozens if not hundreds of much less reputable types in real life that are left to earn, and Ralph was the literal TOP earner. There's no plausible justification for that, point blank.

*He emasculated Richie. I'm admittedly not a fan of Richie as a character, however I feel he could have served much more of a purpose then single season guest antagonist. In reality, Tony made no legitimate attempt to reign Richie in, and did little to make him feel welcomed back into the fold. Richie didn't deserve much IMO, yet I still feel he deserved more than he camp back to and had he been met with more acceptance upon arrival I feel he would not have challenged for authority. However, Richie was an asshole, yet Tony still mishandled it.

*Not killing Phil after the botched attempt spiraled out of control. That mistake can't happen. In real life, you have shooters, back up shooters. This was so poorly mismanaged in an attempt to keep everyone away from it, they completely fumbled the hit that helped ignite the war.

*Killing Rusty was a HUGE mistake. Tony did so little to curry favor with NY because he never felt he needed to. Had he appeased or appealed to Senior Lupertazzi members earlier, Phil would never have had the opportunity to amass a power base.

*Waiting so long to bring Bobby into the mix was a grave mistake as well. While they lacked for depth in their crew for no reason other than weight Bobby was made to be lesser than. He was continued to be tormented and under-appreciated while dating Janice. We all observe during the series how capable Bobby is in most situations, waiting until the series was nearly over to have fully placed him in a leadership role was a mistake on Tony's part. Especially since they lacked for leadership and vocal leadership at that.

*Killing Christopher was likely his biggest mistake of them all. Say what you will about the drug issue but Christopher is the only one left at the end of the show had Tony not killed him. One would imagine he would have been active during the war with NY. It's hard to thing Carlo could have indicated Chrissy in the information he has informed considering the separation between Tony and Chris in business ventures to maximize total net gain while keeping each other's exposure minimal as possible. If Chris doesn't die in the war w/ NY, (IMO he's the most important guy to protect on the Jersey faction in that war due to youth/earning capability) he is likely running the show not long after the war. Bobby dead, Sil a vegetable, Carlo informing, Tony dead or indicted, Patsy either jumped ship NY or indicted. Who is left in that scenario to lead but a few key guys. Chrissy, Paulie, Benny. Food for thought...

Great post !!
Your right !

I think Tony killing Chris wasn't a mistake. The mistake was giving him power and setting him up for future leadership. Chris was not a leader. The only thing he had going for him was being Tony's nephew. Outside of that how much respect did he gain on his own? He ended up a junkie, and his former fiance ended up being a rat.

Once Tony knew Chris couldn't get clean and would be a liability going forward, in that life killing him was a good 'business' decision.

but michael i think that as a capo (before he was using again) he was pretty good, he handle his crew (except that artie-benny beef) he was in charge and was good captain !

I agree with you Meyer that Chris had his moments. And as Tony said to Richie when he and Chris were introduced 'He's capable'.

But I don't think he was ever dependable. In that life, how can you trust someone like that? He seemed to get past his addiction and Adriana. New house, new wife, new baby, hell he's driving Johnny Sacs car around and with all of that he still can't shake the needle.

This is what Junior said to Tony about Chris to..."Heroin? You only got one option. A dog you love catches rabies you put her out of it's misery Anthony!"

Honestly would you trust someone like that or would you just maintain the status quo of 'oh when he's sober he's a good soldier'?

I guess your right.
He only had his moments, but it's hard to trust a junkie, even if he is your nephew.
I think that the love for chrisy make alot of pepole think it was mistake that tony killed him, but he had no other choice.

I think the way he killed him was distasteful. I don't know if that is the right word to use but in that life I would rather have seen him go with a bullet to the back of the head or something quick. Something more cosa nostra.

To suffocate your own nephew by squeezing his nose like that and let him choke on his own blood. That seemed personal.

He had to go but not like that. I guess in that life it doesn't matter how it happens just that it happens and the fact no one was there besides them two, then Tony's story of what happened is all that matters. Truth is a moving target.

Good thread you started Meyer. This board is so quiet it's nice to engage in discussion. Fictional or not.

Allday27...all of your other points i agree with 100%. Your take on Bobby was interesting and on point. Never really thought about it from that angle before.

Thanks michael !
You have interesting and good posts too !

I see your angles here completely. I feel that we need to approach the show as it ages with a greater level of honesty.

I feel that Chris earned better then most while he was both on or off drugs. During his benders he was highly inconsistent, however to note my point of honesty, many of the other characters were largely inconsistent as well.

Going forward I feel that Chris was the logical choice to lead the continue wave of the family into the next era. Must of what we never saw on screen is such a dynamic factor. Given his age at that time, it's hard not to believe Chris hadn't fostered equally important relationships in NY with characters we frankly never saw or heard of. Either in the Lupertazzi Family or the never discussed other Families, you being to question who in Soprano leadership may have inroads towards continued business with other OC enterprises.

My only point of the "mistake" being that Tony acted too impulsively and while I appreciate how the show painted the incident as unreliable solider/father/husband/nephew however in real life many people at Capo level or higher have been indicated to have had drug issues all the same. While Chris was an admittedly desperate case at times, he was getting older and I feel it is s stretch to altogether condemn him. As a man not even 40 for doing recreational coke or heroine if they're keeping it sociably under control I feel shouldn't be executed.

The hard truth is physical currency is harder o hustle consistency and many guys on the streets these days are involved in bookmaking and drug trafficking because there are simply put so few other ways to generate an off paper all cash income. Chris used, not trafficked, which to me I feel would gain you a mercy ruling from leadership where as if you're called out for selling drugs not so much in most cases.

With the aging of the family I feel that Chris was owed a pass in the situation that ended his life as he had no true involvement in causing the accident.The show needed an added storyline and that was the vehicle the used to advance Tony's narrative at that point in the series.

It made for phenomenal TV and imo was the 2nd hardest TV death I ever watched. (Opie on SOA was the worst). That being said I still feel it was a grave mistake as it shortened a list of Soprano Family members who were both young and capable. Going forward I feel the Family at it's point in the series at that time stood to to a lot better with Christopher than without him.

As always, this is just my OPINION, it's not THE answer.

Always here to continue a social dialogue about the show with others who are willing to approach it logically.

hey
i am wondering what would happen if tony would dial 911 and then what ?
what would the other guys will think and say about chris now ?
he did an accident when he was high and while he driving the boss, so in that point it will be bad for chrisy reputation.
and (i am not from the us so i am not too sure about the law and rules there) what would happen if the doctors will find out he used drugs while he was driving ?!
can he lose his driving licence ?
or even go to jail !?

In the US you are required to call the police to report to the scene of an accident. It is not always done this way, but you asked what the US laws indicated.

I'm not sure the other guys who have a strong opinion on slandering Chris's memory. I've never thought Chris was high during the moment of the accident, just generally using within that span of days so he would reasonably assume he would test positive as even cocaine stays active in your system for 72 hours.

Chris wasn't "driving" Tony at the time as in chauffeuring him so I'm hard pressed to think he would have been vilified for it.

Had he been found to test positive while driving they likely would have given him a DUI after the fact. It would then be up to the State Prosecutor to proceed or not. And this would largely depend on Chris's cooperation as it related to the drawing of his blood for DNA tests.

Not in every situation but largely in most cases if you have money to fight the case and you refuse your DNA to be taken, you can reasonably expect to have a DUI charge overturned in the US. Without proof from the night of there is little case if any to prove against you. Chris had the $8-15K it costs to effectively defend against a DUI charge. I doubt he would have been charged, seen those charges stick, or do time. He may have gotten his license suspended through all of this somehow but I'm not sure that would really stop him from driving if we're being honest.

So if that's the case then tony killed him only for using again ?
If so then that's big mistake by him !

That's largely my point. Given what happens in the near future in the series the move can be viewed as Tony jeopardizing the future of the family in the long term for his own immediate best interests in the short term. I've always felt it was a greedy and headstrong move and that's why I feel that whatever theory you subscribe to for how the series concludes, they all involve the Soprano Family having no logical leader and a very grime outlook on a fairly decimated crew. I think Season 8 of Soprano's if it were made at that time would reflect an unintentionally accurate depiction of the Philly Mob.

Paulie would be like Ralph Natale. Chrissy would have been Joey Merlino. Everyone not dead or indicted would be a younger guy or an old timer. No crews, many fringe gangsters. Similar to Philly.

Yeah that's true.
So basiclly tony ruined the dimeo family, he was bad boss with alot of ego and bad
judgment skills.
In season 6 he didn't had junior as an advisor, and he started losing hesh too, and that was really bad for him,
Because sill didn't really had any effect on tony's decisions, tony actually kept things in secert from him.
I guess tony was a leader and charismatic, but not so smart or at least no so smart to be boss ( maybe yet).

Having too huge an Ego and problem with authority.

Everyone answers to someone or to Many..

Tony made a lot of mistakes.