Did Michael have to have Fredo and Roth killed, and to force Pentangeli to commit suicide? Your views?

In my opinion Fredo did not have to be killed. He could have put him on the shelf. He was a nobody anyways. "Running mickey mouse clubs and pickin people up at the airport". And if the Corleone family was going legitimate who cares how that would look in that life.

Roth had to be killed. As far as I see it If you're responsible for shooting up my house when my wife and children are there then you're going. Nothing left to be said.

Pentangeli wasn't forced to do anything. He sliced his wrists on his own accord. He chose the life, He chose to flip, He chose to kill himself. He could have taken his chances another way but he chose not to.

TB, Fredo didn't have to die. Michael had effectively expelled him from the family and the family business. He was no threat. Michael's murder of him was simply revenge which in III he came to regret. However, Fredo's murder repeats a pattern: Michael murdered Carlo although Carlo could have been expelled from the family and eliminated as a threat. As in the case of Fredo, Carlo's murder was simply revenge.

It's probably true that Roth had to die. There was no way for Michael to isolate Roth. Thus, Roth would have always remained a threat.

Frankie's death also was revenge, born out of necessity - by Frankie. Frankie had to commit suicide to save his brother.

In the end, as we've opined many times, the world in which those people operate is so, so different from ours. Their values are so, so different from ours.

I believe Michael having his brother Fredo killed was unforgivable and unnecessary, especially considering Michael was able to keep Fredo under watch or similar until Mama Corleone's natural death
Michael could have continued the same arrangements

The ever astute Roth "would have always remained a threat" Kill or be killed

I don't believe Frankie had to commit suicide to save his brother Vincenzo as Vincenzo was never in danger

I believe Frankie was jolted and reminded of omertà, by his brother Vincenzo's presence, his piercing icy stare was knifelike
Made Frankie realise, what he was about to do - betray his Don - is a no-no in the business they have chosen and need to honour the omertà which was exactly why Michael brought Vincenzo over

Frankie "sliced his wrists on his own accord" with 'helpful push' from Tom!

It's clear to me that Fredo did not have to die. Exile was sufficient to remove any possible threat to Michael. If he were really a threat, Michael would not have waiting until Mama died to have him killed.

Roth would have remained a threat, even though he was seemingly defeated at the time of his killing. He was Michael's primary foe and, in the world they lived in, could not have been left alive.

I think the Pentangeli situation is less clear. Did he actually break omerta? He signed an affidavit attesting to his Don's malfeasance. But he recanted in the hearing and Tom tells Vincenzo that his family's honor is intact.

In either case, Frankie had knowledge that could put Michael away and came really close to turning on him. For Michael to let him live would have been out of character, to say the least.

I agree that Roth would continue to be a threat to Mike ,and for that reason,he had to go. Fredo could have been spared,but Mike was too weak to let him go. Had he been a truly worthy Don,he would have cut Fredo loose to fend for himself,but he was so worried about his bullshit image that he killed him. When Pentangeli met with Tom,we got a clue as to why he killed himself. He says "but their Families were taken care of ". Implying that by his suicide,his Wife and kids would be provided for. Otherwise,they would starve while he rotted away in prison till he died.

Fredo should have never got out of Cuba nd Shuda been put down and whacked on the spot.

I believe that it wasn't a question of deserving to die. Rather, as Oli said, it was a function of "their" (i.e., Michael's) world being so different than ours. From Michael's viewpoint:

--Fredo had betrayed his brother for personal gain ("He said there'd be something in it for me"), nearly causing Michael's and Kay's deaths. His violent outburst in the boathouse showed how deeply Fredo resented his brother. It'd be just a matter of time before another of Michael's enemies approached Fredo with an offer to "finish the job."
--Though Pentangeli's recantation of his Senate affidavit made him useless as a witness against Michael, he still knew plenty of damaging stuff about his former Don. The FBI wasn't going to let him "live better than most people" on the outside without constantly pumping him for info. Sooner or later, they'd get something from Pentangeli that they could use against Michael.
--Roth was Michael's most dangerous, most resourceful enemy. Look how, despite being near death in Havana, he rebounded to trap Michael into five counts of perjury that nearly landed him in prison. As long as Roth drew breath, Michael wouldn't be completely safe.

Being a Don also impelled Michael's ruthlessness. Dons are constantly being sized up and tested for weakness by foes, potential foes, and even those close to him. Michael had to show them--yes, even Tom, Rocco and Neri--that no one, not even his own brother, gets a pass for betrayal. He also had to show that nothing could stop him from exacting vengeance--not even Pentangeli being guarded 24x7 on an Air Force barracks, or Roth being surrounded by law enforcement at an airport.

He could have let Fredo live, but since the story is fiction they had to have plot lines like Fredo's death to drive the story. In my opinion Fredo being left alive and him and Michael having to deal with each other would have been interesting.

why was cicci not whacked for his testimony ?

We didn't see him whacked, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't. But, it's a good question:

You might argue that, although Cicci identified Michael as the head of his crime family, in a key part of his testimony he said he never got a direct order from Michael--which meant that he did not directly implicate Michael in any crimes that he (Cicci) took part in. On the other hand, since the subcommittee kept Pentangeli's survival secret to trap Michael into five counts of perjury, Cicci's testimony that he never fot a direct order from Michael emboldened Michael to lie under oath, thinking that no one else could implicate him. So, though Cicci almost certainly didn't know they were going to use Pentangeli as a witness, he was inadvertently part of the perjury trap.

If no one, not even Michael's own brother, Fredo, gets a pass for betrayal, it is a given that Fabrizio, Willie Cicci got whacked as well

But Michael wasn't a 'Don' by Fredo's murder He was a legitimate businessman!

Whilst Fredo's betrayal could have wiped out the entire Michael Corleone family, they survived
Michael and Kay were still alive

As a matter of interest, the above perhaps is not dissimilar to Vito telling Bonasera "That [murder of the two boys] is not justice your daughter is still alive"

However Vito never even envisaged the fury, resentment, hatred etc. that Fredo would harbour towards Michael for Fredo being stepped over in favour of his kid brother, Don Michael, so much so, Fredo arguably helped set up Michael's murder for Don Fredo [albeit Roth's puppet]

I also believe Vito [Michael too] could have nurtured Fredo by giving Fredo at least a glorified face saving role in the family to show that Fredo is valued in his own right, Michael's right hand man, Consigliere or something

They maybe just couldn't get to Cicci? I assume Frankie is out out of protection because he reneged on the deal he made. Cicci didn't renege, though, so he might be isolated somewhere hard to get to.

Unsure whether Fredo's murder was simply revenge, like Carlo's who had to answer for Santino

Michael made the decision to kill Fredo, in the heat of the moment, immediately after Fredo's outburst in the boathouse with the very real possibility of going to prison for perjury

Tom was allowed to visit Pentangeli in protection? So, wherever Cicci was they could get to him

It's undisputed that killing Fredo was absolutely unnecessary. He was weak, not respected and incapable of making a move / orchestrating grand plans. It shows in the final Godfather film that Michael deeply regretted killing Fredo, he should of disowned him but I can understand the heat of the moment / the lifestyle calls upon Fredo's death

As other people said Roth was a threat and very powerful. He needed to be killed

and Pentangeli? of course. He made the decision to rat so why take another chance? I'm surprised they didn't have anyone on the inside to get rid of him

Did he really? He told the Cardinal in his "confession": "I had my brother killed--he injured me."

Yes, he really did regret it. While he injured me is a weak attempt at an excuse, he follows it with "I killed my mother's son. I killed my father's son." and breaks down in tears. No reason to think he is anything but sincere.

Also telling is the subsequent conversation with Connie. When Michael tells her he made confession and how much it meant to him ("He changed things."), Connie immediately references Fredo's death. She seemed to know that it had been weighing on Michael's conscience.

Whilst "Fredo was weak, not respected and incapable of making a move / orchestrating grand plans" on his own! "It'd be just a matter of time before another of Michael's enemies approached Fredo with an offer to finish the job"

But how?

If he were exiled and cut off entirely from Michael and the Family business, he would have no value to Michael's enemies and would be no threat to Michael.

Exactly Woltz.

Well crying like a little bitch and confessing to the future Pope is a sign to me that he regretted it... remember he said "I killed my father's son" and the other stuff

and no I seriously doubt someone would reach out to Fredo.. again. A man like Roth wouldn't risk going through it all again, he could tell Michael was suspicious or atleast had his doubts near the end

and I forgot to say Mike had his little seizure moment in the kitchen with Vincent, he was shouting "Fredo"

It's a surprise Fredo didn't become a prostitute... that's the only move he could make on his own

My two cents worth!

Michael and Fredo, sentiments aside....

Fredo was never really in the family business

I reckon Fredo will always be a threat and liability, his sort of deep resentment never goes away, always simmering underneath

Roth could tell Michael was suspicious or at least had his doubts near the end but still kept at it - Tahoe shooting, Cuba, Senate hearing
I believe, a man like Roth, if he was alive would risk going through it all again until he had Michael dead

If not Roth, another of Michael's enemies would reach out to Fredo again and again, to finish the job

Even if he were exiled and cut off entirely from Michael, Connie even Tom would probably keep in touch and could inadvertently let slip and reveal something of value

Even the authorities like FBI could reach out to Fredo, to try and get any damaging stuff about Michael from him that they could use against Michael

Michael had made too many enemies Too many variables not exactly foolproof No guarantee whatsoever

Out of sight does not mean out of problems

Exactly Evita

Points well taken, Evita.

As painful as Fredo's death is, I think by the nature of Michael's business Fredo had to die. Even banishing him couldn't guarantee that he wouldn't take the easy way out again and give Michael up to authorities or something. Fredo knew a ton.

Fredo's death was so well done by Puzo and Coppola that it makes me angry to this day when Fredo is embracing Michael while sitting in his chair, like an innocent child, while knowing what his fate is. In the documentary "The Kid Stays in the Picture", Robert Evans says that the family situations in The Godfather were emphasized by design to make the film timeless, so that people like us would be talking about it to this day, nearly a half century later. This must be one of the scenes he was talking about.

The underworld knew of Roth's treachery to Michael, so, again, by the nature of the business, Michael had to make an example out of him.

Really don't have an answer regarding Pentangeli. His suicide was so bizarre. It's as if Michael knew that Frank was so old school Sicilian that he could guilt trip him into doing it for putting the family through all of the trouble he did. I love Pentangeli's line about taking everyone out, "while we've still got the mussscle!!!".

When it comes to Fredo i think people dont realize that he was just a pawn in Roths game. He never gave any information to willingly hurt mike. Was Fredo stupid? Absolutely. Did he have some resentment? Of course. Did he want to hurt mike in any way? Not a chance. He thought he was helping mike out even though it was obviously a bonehead move. I dont think he "had to kill Fredo". Some people argue that if he didnt do it he would appear weak but i dont buy That. I mean for chrissakes this is the same guy who whacked out all of the heads of the five families,moe greene,a police captain,and roth....i seriously doubt anybody would fuck with mike again no matter what he did with fredo.



I felt bad for Frankie. He was loyal to mike until he was manipulated by Roth. His death made sense because he was a old man at that point and he knew that was part of the life plus his family would be taken care of.


Roth of course needed to die. He was his biggest threat and obviously smarter which mike knew.

If Fredo could be so easily suckered by Roth's goons, he could be suckered by anyone, including law enforcement. That's the way Michael saw it. Fredo is a made man. He took an oath, and his actions were treacherous. No coming back from that. Sure, he came up in a mafia family and likely didn't have much of a choice, but in his case, it turned out to be a curse. He wasn't cut out for the life. Should have just been on the legitimate business side without having any knowledge of the rackets. Could have still been a Vegas playboy working for Benny Siegel (Moe Greene), which was probably his calling.

... and what about Connie? She's a woman; she's emotional; she doesn't know the business. So, she's likely to to do something stupid thinking she's helping. Whack her too. And what about Tom? He's not even blood and he's Irish on top of that. Besides, mom always liked him best. Get rid of him.

I think a lot of what Michael does stems from his intellectualism. He just compares and acts: once Carlo is killed Fredo can't be spared, and if Fredo is killed the others have to go.

and let's not forget Michael was a closet homosexual

Well put Evita

Michael's enemies were always and still trying to kill him as we saw in Godfather 3

Another powerful scene in a timeless movie indeed

"Fredo is embracing Michael while sitting in his chair, like an innocent child, while knowing what his fate is"
fate is presumably death?

However it looked like Michael had forgiven Fredo, the brothers hugging each other after Connie's tearful plea until we saw Michael's chilling kill order look at Neri and Neri's subtle nod

Fredo could have thought the same believing he had gotten a pass Fredo wouldn't have known with Mama Corleone's death his time was up

"As painful as Fredo's death is, I think by the nature of Michael's business Fredo had to die"
Wasn't the nature of Michael's business supposedly legitimate by Fredo's death? He was a legitimate businessman!

You are right Fredo's actions were [continuously] treacherous indeed

Still Michael could have easily continued the same arrangements of keeping Fredo under watch or similar until Mama Corleone's natural death. He had the money and the resources
Besides if Mama had lived longer....

Fredo's "Mikey" as Michael was walking away after Fredo's outburst in the boathouse, sounded dejected

Spot on! "so that people like us would be talking about it to this day, nearly a half century later" "while we've still got the mussscle!!!"

In a better (i.e., non-Mafia/non Michael Corleone) world, Frankie might have had a case for survival because of how Michael manipulated his loyalty:

Michael was at his most manipulative after the Tahoe shooting. First he played Tom's emotions like a violin ("I always wanted to be thought of as a brother by you, Michael"), then he scared the rs**t out of Frankie at Frankie's home--then said he wanted Frankie to "help me take my revenge." "Michael...anything," Frankie practically collapsed with relief. Michael sent him to put his head in the lion's mouth by meeting with the Rosatos--to suit Michael's purpose. If he settled the problems with the Rosatos, it was one more worry off Mijchael's mind. If the Rosatos killed, or tried to kill, him, it was further proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting.

Ok can you please explain that one to me? Maybe so - but nothing I have seen would indicate that is the case. Also, not sure what that would have to do with the subject at hand anyway whether he was a closet homosexual or not.

I think in Michael's world, they all (with the exception of MAYBE Frankie) had to go. Sorry - Freddie got what he deserved (in that world). He obviously knew he was doing wrong, and allowed his jealousy of Mike get the best of him. I am personally of the opinion he was more cunning and in the loop than most here give him credit for as well.

That's my opinion, too:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=472494&Searchpage=1&Main=16944&Words=%2Bconspiracy&Search=true#Post472494

I reckon Carlo's murder was a no brainer No way he could be spared

I believe Fredo was going to be spared

Michael was still trying to get Fredo out of Havana saying Fredo was still his brother

Michael told Tom at the Desert Inn, "I know Fredo's scared, tell him everything is all right. Tell him I know Roth misled him and he didn't know they were planing to kill me"

Then Fredo readily hurt Michael again by deliberately withholding the information, not telling him about Pentangeli's survival, Questadt belongs to Roth because Fredo obviously still wanted to harm Michael again He was still trying to send Michael to Prison

No doubt Fredo's actions were continuously treacherous

Fredo's seemingly untenable situation.....Besides if Mama had lived longer....

I think Michael may have considered giving Fredo a pass, but that violent, resentful outburst in the boathouse--Fredo never making an apology, and admitting that he betrayed Michael for personal gain--sealed his fate.


That is a real anomaly. Michael was frantic to get Fredo on that plane with him out of Havana. But, by the time he arrived in Vegas for his meeting with Tom, Rocco and Neri, Michael simply told Tom to "get word" to Fredo, when he could easily have Fredo brought to him immediately.

Frankie should have had more faith in his Don irrespective.....

Even though chain of events including -
Frankie getting little or no help / support from Michael in his troubles with the Rosato brothers all because of Michael and Roth's Father / Son 'alliance'!
Clemenza promising the Rosato brothers three territories in the Bronx after he died was in dispute too

Michael turns up at Frankie's house and asks him to "settle these troubles with the Rosato brothers"
"If the Rosatos killed, or tried to kill, Frankie, it was further proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting"

However I believe Michael was not expecting Frankie to come to any harm other than the humiliating back down, perhaps handing over the three territories and in the process looking weak etc.

In my opinion if Frankie is killed and Rosato brothers, Roth's ally take over the Corleone operations then Michael loses his muscle and becomes just another casino operator, easy pickings for anyone which would be bigger worry for Michael?

As you have said [or similar!] many times, Turnbull, when blinded by revenge and greed it can affect the judgements of even a master manipulator like Michael

I too believe Fredo was going to be spared "but that violent, resentful outburst in the boathouse--Fredo never making an apology, and admitting that he betrayed Michael for personal gain--sealed his fate" Fredo's situation became untenable

My take, for what it is worth!

"Michael was frantic to get Fredo on that plane with him out of Havana" For Fredo's safe passage out
Michael's "get word" to Fredo was to assure Fredo everything is all right

Fredo's true treacherous betrayal only came to light at his boathouse outburst and sealed his fate Fredo's situation became untenable

A lot of unanswered questions are left. What was Fredo's actual role in the shooting? If he left a gate open or gave any info that led to the shooting of Michael and possibly Kay, then I would have to say Fredo deserved to die. Cicci and Frankie Five Angels are out of the picture. What happens with the Rosatos? Do they align with Michael? A side question: it's been mentioned that the original III, was going to have Cicci in it. How was he going to have any standing after testifying against his Don?

Just before the shooting, Michael remarked that the drapes to the bedroom were open. That led a lot of people here, including me, to believe that Fredo opened the drapes to aid the shooters. If so, it puts the lied to Fredo's statement, "I swear to God I didn't know it was gonna be a hit." Why else would they have wanted the drapes to be open?

I believe that Roth was colluding with the Rosatos. Why else would Roth--who lived in Miami and had business interests in Cuba and Nevada--take the Rosatos' side in an obscure beef with Pentangeli over three territories in the Bronx? IMO, Roth's plan was that Pentangeli would be blamed for the Tahoe shooting and the Rosatos would take over the NY operation run by Pentangili that was Michael's muscle-in-reserve. When the Tahoe shooting failed, Roth's backup plan was to lure Michael to Cuba, get the $2 million from him, have him killed in Havana, then have the Rosatos kill Pentangeli so they could take over NY and weaken Michael's successors.

Thanks TB - yeah I've read that thread before. I haven't posted too much on here as you can see by my post count - but I've read just about all these threads and I concur with you 100%. Also I find that you are the best poster on here kind sir.

Looks new theory not floated before

I've said this before, but the idea that Michael viewed Fredo is a threat is totally disproved by Michael's own treatment of Fredo.

He gives Fredo an indefinite lease on life - allowing him to live as long as Mama is alive - and even grants him access to the compound to visit Mama.

Is it really conceivable that Michael - who we all agree was totally paranoid - would allow an enemy to walk free for 5, 10, 20 years? Much less come to his home.

No, it's not conceivable.

Michael's killing of Fredo was personal, not business.

Your point is well taken, LW. A counterpoint:

Yes, it was personal--how could his brother betraying him with near-lethal consequences not be personal?
But, Michael may have been coldly calculating, in addition to having the usual paranoia that comes with being a Don. He may have calculated that Fredo had been frightened enough by being found out so that he was not an immediate threat, especially since he wasn't living in the compound anymore, and was therefore not privy to info or proximity to Michael that could be useful to Michael's enemies. Another guess: Mama may have been sick, so his instruction to Neri--"I want nothing to happen to him as long as my mother is alive"--was a short term commitment. In the event, Mama died soon after: Michael returned from Cuba in 1959; the hearse outside Mama's wake is a '59 Cad, and Roth, who was whacked well after Mama died, said he was returning to the US to "vote in the [1960] election."

"Forgiving" Fredo at the wake, and allowing him to live in the compound, was the classic "keep your friends close but your enemies closer." Perhaps Michael, in his Donship paranoia, calculated that, after Mama died, Fredo would feel unconstrained to betray him again--just as, after Mama died, Michael felt unconstrained to whack Fredo.

Maybe TB, but consider this. A funeral home would not necessarily dispose of a hearse just because it is a few years old. So, Mama's '59 hearse could have been used in the following years. Also, Michael's testimony at the Senate haring could have mimicked the McClellan hearings which took place in '63. The election to which Roth refers at the airport could have been the '64 election. Puzo invented Roth's attempts to enter south american countries, but his rejection by Israel took place in '72.

I'm not saying you're wrong, Oli, but FFC was clearly "mixing metaphors" all through GFII. The Valachi hearings did occur in '63, and the charts shown in the movie were perfect copies of the charts shown then. But, McClellan held hearings about organized crime racketeering from '57 through '60. Meyer Lansky, the obvious model for Roth, was rejected by Israel in '72 and landed in Miami after that, but he never suffered a stroke or attempted murder on New Year's Eve, 1958-9 (I don't think he was even in Cuba that night). I'm basing my surmise about Roth returning "to vote in the [1960] election" on the statement he made in his Havana hotel room to Michael: "Just looking for one man who wants to be President, and having the cash to do it."

In the novel, it mentioned Michael went to gay bars to pick up protection money but his bodyguards noticed something else going on aswell hint hint similar to John D'Amato from Jersey.

In the scene with Moe Greene, he winks to Johnny Fontane. This is an indicator

True enough TB. I just wish that FFC would publish a timeline that makes some sense.

Robert Evans actually said that in The Kid Stays in the Picture. They knew The Godfather would be timeless. They worked extra hard getting the family relationships right so that future generations would find the film relevant.

It's amazing how one thing like this can make a difference.

Joe Pesci's first movie is called The Death Collector. It's really not a bad movie, except for the disco soundtrack. If they use rock and roll music instead of disco, who knows how that film holds up? Just imagine if Scorsese had used disco music in Mean Streets. Yikes. He knew rock and roll was where it was at. The Stones "Tell Me" makes the Volpe's introduction scene work to this day. I hear millennials praising it.

Michael kept Fredo under watch or similar until Mama Corleone's natural death, not quite walking free?

I reckon Fredo was being constantly shadowed even in Michael's home because when Michael went to talk to him, in the boathouse someone, looked like Rocco, leaves

He had no choice, out of love and respect for Mama He couldn't bring himself to put her through the loss of another son

Can you explain more on that because I don't quite get what he means by "family relationships"

The way I see it is the film is still relevant because violence and crime is more common and popular among the youth. TV, music and from what I've experienced giving police the finger is cool and means you aren't weak

The soundtrack is a big part of what makes "Mean Streets" great. My favorite: Charlie looking adoringly at himself in the mirror while putting on the monogrammed shirt his mother bought him, while the Chantels are singing, "I Love You So." Also, Charlie, Tony and Jimmy driving to Joey Catucci's pool room while the Paragons are singing "Florence" --quintessential New York Doo Wop.

Scorsese did a great job of mixing '50s rock and roll ballads with 60's rock. Noticeably missing from most of Scorsese's movies is the classical pop music that is most often connected to mobsters, i.e., Sinatra, The Rat Pack, etc. I'm not sure if it's a personal aversion (he's clearly a rock and roller, he even worked on the Woodstock movie), or if it's just to better represent the viewpoint of the lead characters, be it Charlie in Mean Streets or Henry Hill in Goodfellas, who are both about the same age. These guys didn't grow up on swing jazz. They grew up on The Beatles and Motown. In Casino, Scorsese used a lot more of the Rat Pack, classical pop music, as Ace Roethstein was about a decade older than most of the other Scorsese leads. Of course, Robbie Robertson of The Band was music director for many of Scorsese's 80's and 90's movies, so a lot of these decisions could have had to do with his personal taste.

Those soundtracks ya'll have cited above are outstanding and are a big reason why we repeatedly watch those films (By the way, I'd like to toss in A Bronx Tale; the acapella is in a league by itself.). But for me, the best by far, is in Goodfellas where Jerry Vale sings Pretend You Don't See Her as the camera pans the mobsters in the nightclub room. To see the faces of those mobsters so pacified in contrast with their hardened selves was brilliant staging.

In the late 90's I was at a restaurant in LA and one of the younger women that worked there played around with an old fashion jukebox. When she walked away, the long version of "I Only Have Eyes For You" by the Flamingos from A Bronx Tale plays, the one that starts with the guys singing it acapella.. What a great tune. I'd pretty much forgotten all about the movie at that time. I went out and got the soundtrack CD within a few days, and rented the movie. Of course the CD got all scratched up and I lost it before I ever had a chance to rip it to a hard drive, but what a great album it is. Thinking of buying it again.

I liked the "Streets of the Bronx" acapella, too. A group called Cool Change performed it in the film. Here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKmgXcs-bqg

And, don't forget this chilling performance by Donald Byrd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2KvM2T40RQ

And, here's the Flamingos/Complexions mash up of "I Only Have Eyes for You"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wTfa1H_82Y

At around 1:20, it switches to the Flamingo version. Clever mix.

Scorsese relies too heavily on soundtracks, in my opinion. His movies would not stand up well without all the songs played throughout them. Mean Streets is occasionally referred to as low budget, but he had Rolling Stone and other big songs such as you mentioned in that film, and they must have cost big money.

Notice, though, that you don't see Vale's face in that scene. Probably would have had to pay him more if he'd shown Vale's face.

Who in the Trilogy should have been whacked that wasn't?

I start with the piccolo player in II who made fun of Frankie.

I feel Fredo DID have to die. Why? This was the second time he had taken sides against the family (the first was with Moe Green in Part 1). He proved he can't be trusted. His outburst about "being passed over" showed that he resented Michael. Given how easily he was hoodwinked by Roth, letting him live could have proved very dangerous as he might have easily been tricked again later on by another smooth-talking gangster. He could have gotten enough resentment that he would try to sabotage Michael's endeavors, even try to show that Michael was a criminal. The possibilities are endless for what he might have done had he been left alive.

Roth absolutely had to be killed. He was far from a harmless old man like he pretended to be and would have been a major thorn in Michael's side one way or another if he had been allowed to live.

• Rocco

Did Rocco have to die? What would our take be as to why Rocco was killed off? It didn't morph into anything

Rocco was the only one of Michael's men who didn't return -- died on a successful job
[I am in the minority! that killing Roth need not have been a suicide mission at all. Rocco had no escape plan whatsoever]

He need not have died

Roth? Yes I can understand that. Pentangeli? I don’t think so. He was no threat to Mike anymore after recanting and knowing what would happen to his family if he tried again. Fredo? Absolutely not. There is zero evidence that shows Fredo knew about the plot to kill Mike, there is plenty of evidence to show he was misled and used. Was he stupid? Of course but was it worth killing your own brother? What did it accomplish other than causing more pain for everyone including Mike eventually

Don't know why Rocco was killed off? True didn't morph into anything

I too reckon killing Roth need not have been a suicide mission at all.
He was like a deer caught in headlights, having no escape plans whatsoever

Drama trumps logic every time.

. I just find it odd that Roth didn’t recognize Rocco. Surely he knows one of Mikes top capos. It’s not like he was in a disguise