Did Michael have to have Fredo and Roth killed, and to force Pentangeli to commit suicide? Your views?

In my opinion Fredo did not have to be killed. He could have put him on the shelf. He was a nobody anyways. "Running mickey mouse clubs and pickin people up at the airport". And if the Corleone family was going legitimate who cares how that would look in that life.

Roth had to be killed. As far as I see it If you're responsible for shooting up my house when my wife and children are there then you're going. Nothing left to be said.

Pentangeli wasn't forced to do anything. He sliced his wrists on his own accord. He chose the life, He chose to flip, He chose to kill himself. He could have taken his chances another way but he chose not to.

TB, Fredo didn't have to die. Michael had effectively expelled him from the family and the family business. He was no threat. Michael's murder of him was simply revenge which in III he came to regret. However, Fredo's murder repeats a pattern: Michael murdered Carlo although Carlo could have been expelled from the family and eliminated as a threat. As in the case of Fredo, Carlo's murder was simply revenge.

It's probably true that Roth had to die. There was no way for Michael to isolate Roth. Thus, Roth would have always remained a threat.

Frankie's death also was revenge, born out of necessity - by Frankie. Frankie had to commit suicide to save his brother.

In the end, as we've opined many times, the world in which those people operate is so, so different from ours. Their values are so, so different from ours.

I believe Michael having his brother Fredo killed was unforgivable and unnecessary, especially considering Michael was able to keep Fredo under watch or similar until Mama Corleone's natural death
Michael could have continued the same arrangements

The ever astute Roth "would have always remained a threat" Kill or be killed

I don't believe Frankie had to commit suicide to save his brother Vincenzo as Vincenzo was never in danger

I believe Frankie was jolted and reminded of omertà, by his brother Vincenzo's presence, his piercing icy stare was knifelike
Made Frankie realise, what he was about to do - betray his Don - is a no-no in the business they have chosen and need to honour the omertà which was exactly why Michael brought Vincenzo over

Frankie "sliced his wrists on his own accord" with 'helpful push' from Tom!

It's clear to me that Fredo did not have to die. Exile was sufficient to remove any possible threat to Michael. If he were really a threat, Michael would not have waiting until Mama died to have him killed.

Roth would have remained a threat, even though he was seemingly defeated at the time of his killing. He was Michael's primary foe and, in the world they lived in, could not have been left alive.

I think the Pentangeli situation is less clear. Did he actually break omerta? He signed an affidavit attesting to his Don's malfeasance. But he recanted in the hearing and Tom tells Vincenzo that his family's honor is intact.

In either case, Frankie had knowledge that could put Michael away and came really close to turning on him. For Michael to let him live would have been out of character, to say the least.

I agree that Roth would continue to be a threat to Mike ,and for that reason,he had to go. Fredo could have been spared,but Mike was too weak to let him go. Had he been a truly worthy Don,he would have cut Fredo loose to fend for himself,but he was so worried about his bullshit image that he killed him. When Pentangeli met with Tom,we got a clue as to why he killed himself. He says "but their Families were taken care of ". Implying that by his suicide,his Wife and kids would be provided for. Otherwise,they would starve while he rotted away in prison till he died.

Fredo should have never got out of Cuba nd Shuda been put down and whacked on the spot.

I believe that it wasn't a question of deserving to die. Rather, as Oli said, it was a function of "their" (i.e., Michael's) world being so different than ours. From Michael's viewpoint:

--Fredo had betrayed his brother for personal gain ("He said there'd be something in it for me"), nearly causing Michael's and Kay's deaths. His violent outburst in the boathouse showed how deeply Fredo resented his brother. It'd be just a matter of time before another of Michael's enemies approached Fredo with an offer to "finish the job."
--Though Pentangeli's recantation of his Senate affidavit made him useless as a witness against Michael, he still knew plenty of damaging stuff about his former Don. The FBI wasn't going to let him "live better than most people" on the outside without constantly pumping him for info. Sooner or later, they'd get something from Pentangeli that they could use against Michael.
--Roth was Michael's most dangerous, most resourceful enemy. Look how, despite being near death in Havana, he rebounded to trap Michael into five counts of perjury that nearly landed him in prison. As long as Roth drew breath, Michael wouldn't be completely safe.

Being a Don also impelled Michael's ruthlessness. Dons are constantly being sized up and tested for weakness by foes, potential foes, and even those close to him. Michael had to show them--yes, even Tom, Rocco and Neri--that no one, not even his own brother, gets a pass for betrayal. He also had to show that nothing could stop him from exacting vengeance--not even Pentangeli being guarded 24x7 on an Air Force barracks, or Roth being surrounded by law enforcement at an airport.

He could have let Fredo live, but since the story is fiction they had to have plot lines like Fredo's death to drive the story. In my opinion Fredo being left alive and him and Michael having to deal with each other would have been interesting.

why was cicci not whacked for his testimony ?

We didn't see him whacked, but it doesn't mean that he wasn't. But, it's a good question:

You might argue that, although Cicci identified Michael as the head of his crime family, in a key part of his testimony he said he never got a direct order from Michael--which meant that he did not directly implicate Michael in any crimes that he (Cicci) took part in. On the other hand, since the subcommittee kept Pentangeli's survival secret to trap Michael into five counts of perjury, Cicci's testimony that he never fot a direct order from Michael emboldened Michael to lie under oath, thinking that no one else could implicate him. So, though Cicci almost certainly didn't know they were going to use Pentangeli as a witness, he was inadvertently part of the perjury trap.

If no one, not even Michael's own brother, Fredo, gets a pass for betrayal, it is a given that Fabrizio, Willie Cicci got whacked as well

But Michael wasn't a 'Don' by Fredo's murder He was a legitimate businessman!

Whilst Fredo's betrayal could have wiped out the entire Michael Corleone family, they survived
Michael and Kay were still alive

As a matter of interest, the above perhaps is not dissimilar to Vito telling Bonasera "That [murder of the two boys] is not justice your daughter is still alive"

However Vito never even envisaged the fury, resentment, hatred etc. that Fredo would harbour towards Michael for Fredo being stepped over in favour of his kid brother, Don Michael, so much so, Fredo arguably helped set up Michael's murder for Don Fredo [albeit Roth's puppet]

I also believe Vito [Michael too] could have nurtured Fredo by giving Fredo at least a glorified face saving role in the family to show that Fredo is valued in his own right, Michael's right hand man, Consigliere or something

They maybe just couldn't get to Cicci? I assume Frankie is out out of protection because he reneged on the deal he made. Cicci didn't renege, though, so he might be isolated somewhere hard to get to.

Unsure whether Fredo's murder was simply revenge, like Carlo's who had to answer for Santino

Michael made the decision to kill Fredo, in the heat of the moment, immediately after Fredo's outburst in the boathouse with the very real possibility of going to prison for perjury

Tom was allowed to visit Pentangeli in protection? So, wherever Cicci was they could get to him

It's undisputed that killing Fredo was absolutely unnecessary. He was weak, not respected and incapable of making a move / orchestrating grand plans. It shows in the final Godfather film that Michael deeply regretted killing Fredo, he should of disowned him but I can understand the heat of the moment / the lifestyle calls upon Fredo's death

As other people said Roth was a threat and very powerful. He needed to be killed

and Pentangeli? of course. He made the decision to rat so why take another chance? I'm surprised they didn't have anyone on the inside to get rid of him

Did he really? He told the Cardinal in his "confession": "I had my brother killed--he injured me."

Yes, he really did regret it. While he injured me is a weak attempt at an excuse, he follows it with "I killed my mother's son. I killed my father's son." and breaks down in tears. No reason to think he is anything but sincere.

Also telling is the subsequent conversation with Connie. When Michael tells her he made confession and how much it meant to him ("He changed things."), Connie immediately references Fredo's death. She seemed to know that it had been weighing on Michael's conscience.

Whilst "Fredo was weak, not respected and incapable of making a move / orchestrating grand plans" on his own! "It'd be just a matter of time before another of Michael's enemies approached Fredo with an offer to finish the job"

But how?

If he were exiled and cut off entirely from Michael and the Family business, he would have no value to Michael's enemies and would be no threat to Michael.

Exactly Woltz.

Well crying like a little bitch and confessing to the future Pope is a sign to me that he regretted it... remember he said "I killed my father's son" and the other stuff

and no I seriously doubt someone would reach out to Fredo.. again. A man like Roth wouldn't risk going through it all again, he could tell Michael was suspicious or atleast had his doubts near the end

and I forgot to say Mike had his little seizure moment in the kitchen with Vincent, he was shouting "Fredo"

It's a surprise Fredo didn't become a prostitute... that's the only move he could make on his own

My two cents worth!

Michael and Fredo, sentiments aside....

Fredo was never really in the family business

I reckon Fredo will always be a threat and liability, his sort of deep resentment never goes away, always simmering underneath

Roth could tell Michael was suspicious or at least had his doubts near the end but still kept at it - Tahoe shooting, Cuba, Senate hearing
I believe, a man like Roth, if he was alive would risk going through it all again until he had Michael dead

If not Roth, another of Michael's enemies would reach out to Fredo again and again, to finish the job

Even if he were exiled and cut off entirely from Michael, Connie even Tom would probably keep in touch and could inadvertently let slip and reveal something of value

Even the authorities like FBI could reach out to Fredo, to try and get any damaging stuff about Michael from him that they could use against Michael

Michael had made too many enemies Too many variables not exactly foolproof No guarantee whatsoever

Out of sight does not mean out of problems

Exactly Evita

Points well taken, Evita.

As painful as Fredo's death is, I think by the nature of Michael's business Fredo had to die. Even banishing him couldn't guarantee that he wouldn't take the easy way out again and give Michael up to authorities or something. Fredo knew a ton.

Fredo's death was so well done by Puzo and Coppola that it makes me angry to this day when Fredo is embracing Michael while sitting in his chair, like an innocent child, while knowing what his fate is. In the documentary "The Kid Stays in the Picture", Robert Evans says that the family situations in The Godfather were emphasized by design to make the film timeless, so that people like us would be talking about it to this day, nearly a half century later. This must be one of the scenes he was talking about.

The underworld knew of Roth's treachery to Michael, so, again, by the nature of the business, Michael had to make an example out of him.

Really don't have an answer regarding Pentangeli. His suicide was so bizarre. It's as if Michael knew that Frank was so old school Sicilian that he could guilt trip him into doing it for putting the family through all of the trouble he did. I love Pentangeli's line about taking everyone out, "while we've still got the mussscle!!!".

When it comes to Fredo i think people dont realize that he was just a pawn in Roths game. He never gave any information to willingly hurt mike. Was Fredo stupid? Absolutely. Did he have some resentment? Of course. Did he want to hurt mike in any way? Not a chance. He thought he was helping mike out even though it was obviously a bonehead move. I dont think he "had to kill Fredo". Some people argue that if he didnt do it he would appear weak but i dont buy That. I mean for chrissakes this is the same guy who whacked out all of the heads of the five families,moe greene,a police captain,and roth....i seriously doubt anybody would fuck with mike again no matter what he did with fredo.



I felt bad for Frankie. He was loyal to mike until he was manipulated by Roth. His death made sense because he was a old man at that point and he knew that was part of the life plus his family would be taken care of.


Roth of course needed to die. He was his biggest threat and obviously smarter which mike knew.

If Fredo could be so easily suckered by Roth's goons, he could be suckered by anyone, including law enforcement. That's the way Michael saw it. Fredo is a made man. He took an oath, and his actions were treacherous. No coming back from that. Sure, he came up in a mafia family and likely didn't have much of a choice, but in his case, it turned out to be a curse. He wasn't cut out for the life. Should have just been on the legitimate business side without having any knowledge of the rackets. Could have still been a Vegas playboy working for Benny Siegel (Moe Greene), which was probably his calling.

... and what about Connie? She's a woman; she's emotional; she doesn't know the business. So, she's likely to to do something stupid thinking she's helping. Whack her too. And what about Tom? He's not even blood and he's Irish on top of that. Besides, mom always liked him best. Get rid of him.

I think a lot of what Michael does stems from his intellectualism. He just compares and acts: once Carlo is killed Fredo can't be spared, and if Fredo is killed the others have to go.