That makes sense, TB. Makes me now want to almost go back to GFIII, which I haven't seen in years . . .

But seriously it's always great to find out something new about any of the films. I watched it on AMC last week (as I'm sure everyone else did) and in GFII just now noticed Rocco sitting on the other side of Kay during the Pentangeli hearing, which I assumed to mean that Neri was back in Nevada "guarding" Fredo?

You can watch the movies a thousand times and still find something you didn't spot before--like Rocco sitting next to Kay. That may have been a blooper--Rocco was identified as a caporegime in the FBI chart shown in the first part of the hearing, when Michael testified. Not really a swift move having a caporegime sitting next to Kay with Michael denying he's a Mob boss.

Watching it tonight I noticed that when Vito was shot he’s struggling to get on his feet then he falls over unconscious lying on his back. After they show Fredo crying there is a wider shot and suddenly Vito is lying on his left side. Bit of a goof there.

FFC had trouble with continuity in the scenes with shootings. When Michael whacks McCluskey in the restaurant, his first shot hits Mac in the throat, but you see the red splotch for his second shot to the head even as he's clutching his throat. When Sonny is massacred at the toll booth, some bullet holes in his car appear, disappear and appear again.

Just before Fredo's boathouse outburst, when Michael, Tom and Neri are discussing how Pentangeli is alive, I reckon Tom says gleefully! payback time!!

“No way we can get to him. If we don't it's up to five counts of perjury”
"Fredo says he doesn't know anything I believe him"
“Roth played this one beautifully”

I reckon he is thinking I am gonna take over! I am gonna be the Don!!

When Michael and Fredo are having their little tete-a-tete in Havana, Michael says to Fredo,"Senator Geary is flying in from Washington tomorrow night with some people -- some government people. I want you to show them a good time in Havana." Fredo seems to smirk, resignedly, and says, "My specialty, right?" as if that's all Michael ever expected of him. It adds to the force of Fredo's outburst in the boathouse later, when he shouts, "Send Fredo to do this, send Fredo to do that...send Fredo to run some Mickey Mouse nightclub somewhere."

I agree TB. However, I think that his words were also the result of his frustration with himself, his realization that he did not have the force that Sonny had nor Michael's intelligence.

On the other hand, should Michael have detected in Fredo the potential for betrayal? Also, why was Havana Fredo's "kind of town" if he had never been there before? Did he know it by reputation perhaps? How did he come to so quickly know about the local drinks as he suggested at the New Year's eve party?

Despie that Fredo still wanted to help Mike. I still feel like there are people who feel like Fredo was cold blooded traitor because of the boathouse outburst. Yes he had those feeling BUT he was never gonna actually turn on his brother. Even mike admits Roth misled him and lied to him

And the Corleone look Michael gave Tom

My take, for what it is worth!

Fredo seemed pleased that he was being included and proud of his speciality, showing people a good time

I didn't read too much into Fredo's "Havana's great, it's my kinda town" as anyone visiting a 'new' city could have made that same or similar comment, impressed with what he saw from the airport to the hotel
Also Michael knew a place the brothers can spend some time together

Besides Fredo would have to quickly 'research' the local drinks, local entertainment even perhaps 'sampled' the superman club! that night since Fredo was going to show Geary and some government people a good time the next day Fredo's speciality

Good questions, Oli. It didn't take genius for Michael figure that Fredo was too weak and stupid to run the family in his absence. But he didn't figure that his constant sidelining of Fredo into "Mickey Mouse" jobs (and his put down of Fredo in Vegas after the Moe Green meeting) would cause enough resentment to turn his brother into a traitor. Fredo might have come to Havana on his own and known how to show people a good time. But, I thought it was suspicious that Johnny Ola said, "We never met." If Ola remembered Hagen from the old days, he surely must have met Fredo as well. Why didn't Michael pick up on that? For that matter, Sonny should have picked up that Carlo would be filled with enough hatred of him after his public beating and humiliation that he'd turn traitor and set Sonny up.
As Vito said in GF: "Women and children can afford to be careless. But not men."

Again it is important how you characterize a traitor. In my eyes a traitor is someone who consciously sides with another family to get your boss/superior killed. For Example Carlo was a traitor because he wanted Sonny dead after the beating AND he thought with sonny gone he would finally move up in the family. Tessio even though he was loyal to Vito and did like Mike he set up Mike to be killed to start his own family. Fredo on the other hand was different. Its clear he was misled and used. Was he weak,stupid,resentful? Absolutely. But it clear his goal in his mind was that he was doing something on his own but helping the family.....he didnt want mike harmed, he didnt even want him out as boss.

Where is it said that Fredo had never visited Havana before?

I know he claims not to have met Roth or Ola but I don't recall him saying anything about being unfamiliar with Havana.

This brings up an interesting point: What did Fredo really believe and want? Did he really think that no harm would befall Michael when he told Roth the layout of the house? Did he think that, if he helped close the deal with Roth, that Michael and the rest of the Family would be pleased and give him a more substantial role? Maybe make him the boss, to rectify the mistake of him getting passed over.

I think one of the themes of the Trilogy (and GFII in particular) is people lying to themselves.

Michael believes he can become legitimate while running the nation's top Mafia Family.

Kay tells herself that the Family will be legitimate within 5 years.

Roth thinks he can rule his empire forever.

And Fredo tells himself that he can take sides against the Family and somehow end up more powerful and respected.

They were all wrong and they were all doomed to suffer a violent death or the violent death of those closest to them.

Well, that's the point. If Cuba was Fredo's kind of town and if Fredo was familiar with Cuba's local drinks, then that should have indicated to Michael that Fredo had been to Cuba before.If Fredo had been to Cuba before, then Michael's suspicions should have been aroused.

My two cents worth! All sentiments aside...

No alarm bells for me either regarding "Havana's great, it's my kinda town" and later knowing the local drinks, local entertainment does not necessarily mean to me that Fredo had been to Cuba before

How else is he going to show people a good time without local knowledge?
Besides one call to the hotel concierge and he would have had all these information

Vito, Michael, Tom, everyone even well-versed Godfather scholars of this board! underestimated Fredo that he was so dangerous and detrimental because he was stepped over, for his kid brother

Nobody not Michael, not even Vito had any inclination how detrimental Fredo would be, arguably even setting Michael up to be murdered, for the Donship
Nobody detected in Fredo the potential for betrayal but in all fairness how and why anyone would ever even suspect blood family ever

Turnbull put it beautifully!

It could be that Fredo had already been sent to Vegas before the old days Ola mentioned and "We never met." at the hotel or anywhere
He said “Johnny Ola bumped into me in Beverly Hills”

Fredo was constantly sidelined by Vito and Sonny, long before Michael took over but of course he would have never done what he did to his kid brother, to his father or older brother

Vito also figured that Fredo was too weak and stupid to run the family but also didn't figure being stepped over, for his kid brother would cause enough resentment to turn him into a traitor

I reckon Vito is the one who was most careless, destructive in not picking up on disastrous stuff out of the three even slipping regards Sollozzo who was not family unlike blood Fredo and Carlo who was also Sonny's friend prior to marrying Connie

Roth and Moe Greene connection had only just surfaced and I reckon Michael seemed pensive perhaps even suspicious when Fredo / Ola introduction was made, may have started to put the treacherous puzzle together but still in denial?

Brothers! Fredo arguably setting Michael up to be murdered, for the Donship Michael the Don actually murders Fredo

There really no evidence that Fredos goal is to be the boss despite what he said about being passed over. Its pretty clear all he wanted was some respect as a mobster. He was well liked but mostly out of pity. I think some are still trying to convince us that Fredo was vindictive and treacherous like carlo and tessio. The film makes it clear that its not the case. Part 3 is about how the choice to kill Fredo was evil and senseless

My take, for what it is worth!

I believe the key to all these perhaps lie in Fredo's boathouse outburst
Michael certainly believed until Fredo's outburst, Roth mislead Fredo and he didn't know they were planing to kill Michael

My view and I hope no sleeping with the fishes for me! among others,

• Fredo undoubtedly wanted to be Don Absolutely no question about that
• However 'ostrich' Fredo may have closed his mind as to how he is getting the Donship obviously unless Michael, the current Don is dead
• After the Tahoe shooting no more self-deluded beguile excuse as to how Fredo was getting the Donship
• Fredo arguably opened the window drapes thus 'identifying' Michael's bedroom and knew it was gonna be a hit
• Fredo tells Michael “I didn't know it was gonna be a hit Mike I swear to god I didn't know it was going to be a hit” but Fredo is never going to admit that he set his kid brother up to be murdered
• Fredo's “You lied to me” to Ola could mean that they promised Michael would have been dead and Fredo would have been the new Don by now, the something in it for Fredo
• Even Fredo would have known there was no way he could operate outside the Corleone business, something on his own
• Ola's “Your brother's not going to find out we talked” could be a veiled threat, or else
• Fredo's “I don't know what you're talking about” could be, leave me alone “you got me in deep enough already”
• We are none the wiser as to what exactly was the little help Fredo gave Ola but whatever it was it was undoubtedly instrumental in the Tahoe shooting and nothing to do with closing the deal fast! .
• If Fredo did not want to harm Michael why did Fredo still withhold information from Michael like "The Senate lawyer Questadt belongs to Roth"
• Fredo's continued silence was because Fredo still wanted to harm Michael and try to send him to Prison for Don Fredo
• How hard it was, like pulling teeth, for Michael to extract the information from Fredo in the boathouse

The thorn! in my theory is why did Ola phone Fredo about Pentangeli's meeting with the Rosato brothers?
Roth and Ola would have known, always knew that Fredo has no involvement in the family business and would know nothing about the meeting

So, what was the significance of Ola's late night phone call to Fredo?
The only reason I can think of for the phone call scene is to convey the information to the prospective audience that Fredo was the traitor
Amen to that!

A few more, not quite in the same league! as yours though -

Vito believes his no to Sollozzo drug deal and then sending Luca over to Tattaglias will find what they have under their fingernails

Vito believes after the Baptism, Moe Greene, Carlo murders Michael can live a 'legitimate' life

Woltz acts he is bigger than the Corleones and wakes up with his prized horse Khartoum's head

Greene thinks he can slap a Corleone around, insult another Corleone and somehow keep the hotel

Carlo thinks he can lure Sonny to his murder and somehow end up as Michael's right hand man in Nevada

Turncoat Tessio believes he can set his Don up to be murdered and another Don will embrace him into their family

Nice take, Lana


and “Your brother's not going to find out we talked” so don't blow our cover don't go squealing to your brother

How about this: the scene is Michael entering Roth's home in Miami. Roth's wife tells Michael that it's okay and asks him if he wants a tuna sandwich. Michael says no and then starts walking toward Roth's tv room. As he does, look at Michael's left hand which would be on your right. Michael folds his two inner fingers into or near his palm while holding his two outer fingers relatively straight toward the floor.

Is Michael a Texas Longhorns fan? Is he an Illuminati? Is he giving the Italian Coma?

I seem to remember his employing that sign in another scene.

To that point: watch how Paulie gives the FBI guys the cornudo after Sonny spits on the FBI guy's credentials and roughs up the press photographer at Connie's weddinng.

Barzini would have kept tessio around long enough to get vital information, bring over his men then killed him
and make it look like the corleones did it for him leaving.

".. and the other two kids."

Sollozzo says that to Tom. What other two kids? Well, Fredo and Michael. What about Connie?

Of course, Connie would have been valueless in the business. However, it might also be a comment on the general perception of women during that era.

Love the way Rocco looks at Moe Green in the meeting at the Casino.

Its like he is saying with his eyes, are you f n kidding me... this guy is Dead.


https://youtu.be/9DZNDEqcSi0

In the same scene, look how disgusted Tom seems when Moe comes in.

Yes. I see that also.

When Questadt asks Willie Cicci, at the Senate hearing, “You kill people at the -- uh -- at the behest of your superiors?” “Cicci's lawyer nods, gestures for Cicci to say yes....

I bet the lawyer belongs to Roth!

After Fredo's wife's drunken bahaviour, I reckon he is thinking I am gonna take over! I am gonna be the Don!! after tonight a real man

He played the weak and stupid but with a good heart, to the hilt

He might have perhaps felt a twinge of guilt that it was the last time he would see Michael alive

Watching GF II today and the scene where Roth tells the mini-history of Moe Greene and Las Vegas. He states that Las Vegas was a stop-over for GIs on their way to the West coast. Of course, it may have been, but there's no evidence that it was.

This topic has received a huge amount attention on this Board. I guess it is a bit of my curiosity (and frustration) about how these urban myths get started and perpetuated especially when it comes to Las Vegas and Siegel,

At the superman club, just before Fredo's slipup that he was the traitor, the woman in the orange dress with Geary, keeps lifting the glass trying to get Fredo to drink more alcohol and he takes a sip

When he screams he was stepped over, in the boathouse outburst his right hand is like a piston like he was beating his chest