Reprehensible character that he was, it's entirely possible that Michael ultimately interpreted what Mama said as a green light. But, for the moment, I think he was upset about losing Kay.

I agree with TB on this one.

I don't see any indication that Michael is anything but upset about how his family life has turned out. If he had some ulterior motive, why would he question what his father thought "deep in his heart?"

As to him using Mama's comments as an endorsement of his actions without consequence to him, Michael himself refutes this with his "tempi cambi" comment.

He is saying to Mama that times change, and one can lose his family these days. Which is exactly what Michael realized was happening.

As far as realizations go Woltz, he could be thinking that HIS times are changing, that he had changed. When he said in III "I spent my life protecting my family" and "What choice did I have?", he was rationalizing his conduct. Remember, at the end of I he outright lied to Kay and in II, he excused his failure to leave criminality behind with "I'm trying."

...like pulling Kay down during the Tahoe shooting. Kay had the last word: "But you became my horror."

What a nice board! Thanks J Geoff and Gizmo!

I tend to believe that Michael was talking about his blood family
Michael could see that Kay and his marriage was falling apart and I believe Michael was seeking advice from his mother

From memory, the women were never involved in the Mafia, so, I believe it is unlikely Michael was talking about the Mafia family to his mother

Besides at that stage the Mafia family, run by Frankie Pentangeli, even though had the Corleone name, was small potatoes!
And Michael had been distancing himself from Mafia, trying to become legitimate

It was surreal when Michael returned home, Kay was at the sewing machine, knew Michael was back from Cuba, may not have realised Michael was actually home

Michael not approaching Kay, having nothing to say to her, especially after such traumatic events – Tahoe shooting

• Michael not comforting his wife who just had a 'miscarriage'
• Michael talking to his mother not his wife
• If Michael had the same “losing the family” talk with Kay......second chance at their marriage
• If Michael had said half the 'reassurances' of Hotel Washington, to Kay, the marriage may have been saved

The way Michael protected Kay during the bedroom shooting was indeed incredible

I watched the GF this morning and noticed something in the opening scene with Bonasera. Bonasera asks Vito to murder the boys who assaulted his daughter. Vito declines. Why? Well, Vito later explains that justice would not be served through murder since Bonasera's daughter is still alive. After Bonasera leaves, Vito tells Tom that we are not murderers. Curious.

Vito has his own morality and justice standards. There's no surprise there. But it seems that Vito needs to rationalize his behavior, so he sets up his own standard. As long as he adheres to it, he figures that he's not a murderer. Is Vito's approach a foreshadowing of Michael's rational about how he spent his life protecting his family even if it involved murder?

Yes, Vito had his own standards for "morality" and "justice." When he told Bonasera, "that is not justice, your daughter is still alive," he was really objecting to "doing murder for money," which would have made him no better than a hired killer, at Bonasera's beck and call. When he said to Tom, "we're not murderers," he meant, "murderers for hire." The novel tells us he had no objection to killing competitors of the Genco Pura Olive Oil Company, but that was not murder for hire, it was murder for the money his competitors were costing him.

Excellent point about Michael, Oli. Michael was the Great Rationalizer, starting when he told Kay, in New Hampshire, "my father is no different than other powerful men..." If "Governors and Senators have people killed, why not Vito and Michael? When he gave Kay that BS about "protecting my family from the horrors of this world," he should have appended, "horrors like the Tahoe shooting that I brought on you and the kids through my criminal life." Kay brought him up short when she replied, "but you became my horror."

I watched GFII tonight. have watched this scene a million times, but just noticed.

When Michael returns from Cuba and tells Rocco and Neri to wait outside, Rocco leaves, but Neri turns his back to Michael, waits, then finally leaves. However, he exits, then closes the sliding door, but waits there for many seconds looking inside. I took that as his demonstrating his dissatisfaction with being excluded. Did any of you see that and interpret it such?

Also, at the nightclub when Geary et al are hosted by Fredo, I wonder if Michael wondered why Fredo already knew about the local drinks since he had only been in Cuba for a day and supposedly had never been to Cuba before.

Oli, I'll have to look at that Neri scene again, but what I recall is he follows Rocco to the sliding door, stops, turns around, and grabs a cigar from a box on the coffee table. Your point about his possibly not wanting to be excluded would fit with my long-standing theory that he was trying to edge out Tom to be #2.

I didn't conclude that Fredo had never been to Cuba before. As he told Michael, "Havana's my kind of town." It'd be logical that Fredo, involved with gambling and whoring in Nevada, would want to visit Cuba.

TB, Neri does exit the motel room, closes the sliding door, and then stands there for many seconds peering inside at Michael and Tom. Then he turns away. Since there's a curtain on the sliding door, I can't see the expression on his face.

I cannot even imagine! anyone “demonstrating their dissatisfaction” to Michael about anything he said or did

Havana's great It's Fredo's kinda town!

Yet another couple of details:
In the scene in GF where Sonny confronts the FBI guys writing down license plate numbers at Connie's wedding, Paulie trails Sonny. He's got his hand inside his jacket, as if he's about to pull out a gun. After Sonny spits on the FBI guy's I.D. and turns away, Paulie slips the FBI guy a cornudo--the index-finger-and-pinkie gesture that means "cuckold" among Italians.

TB, that's one illustration of how FFC dramatized some scenes. In the novel, there are only two FBI who never leave their vehicle, are across the street. Of course, the most elaborate hype in the film was Sonny's murder.

...FFC's tribute to Arthur Penn's "Bonnie and Clyde."

Does anyone have an idea about how much time elapsed between Vito's return to the mall and Michael's trip to Las Vegas?

Short answer: I don't know.
Longer answer: Vito returned to the Mall some time in 1946, probably spring or summer. Michael was still in Sicily. The next we see of Michael in America is when he woos Kay in New Hampshire, and he tells her, "I've been back a year." The next we see of Michael after that is the trip to Vegas. How much time elapsed overall is uncertain--more than a year, probably less than five years.

TB, the novel states that Sonny moved Vito to the mall in February. The Don's meeting was probably in the Spring or Summer of '46. When Michael surprises Kay there are leaves on the ground and they're wearing winter clothes and a year probably places Michael's return in late '47. The timeline is so messed up.

*ding*ding*ding*

There's the definitive answer. Due to messed up differences between the novel and the movies and just plain sloppy facts one will never be able to fully answer questions like this.

That may be the understatement of the year, Oli. Figuring out timelines is one of the most intriguing--and frustrating--activities on this board.

In the scene where Michael and Fredo are having their drink in Havana, Michael tells Fredo that he'll be assassinated. "Who?" Fredo asks. Michael grunts out "Roth," in a way that suggests to me disgust and regret--as if he's saying, "Why did I ever believe I could do a deal with him."

TB, it's astounding that Michael could ever think he could negotiate with Roth. Of course, what concerns me even more is that he's admitting that while in the mouth of the lion. Isn't that something one concludes while ensconced in the safety of his Tahoe compound?

You'd think so, Oli. But, the Michael/Roth relationship from the beginning was defined by greed: Michael's for Roth's Cuban gaming empire, Roth's for getting rid of Michael while getting him to pay $2 million for his own demise. Nothing rational about greed.

In II, the Rosatos attempt to garrote Frankie. In an AHC episode about the Mafia, the Gallo brothers attempt to garrote someone (I forget who). I wonder if it was FFC copying real life Mafia events or simply the TV production co-opting real life events. Of course some of that is part of the Trilogy, but I just wonder how valid are the AHC accounts.

oli, I think you're referring to the real life incident in which Larry Gallo (Crazy Joe's brother) was almost strangled to death by members of the Profaci Family in a bar in Brooklyn. Gallo was close to death when a cop walked in and interrupted the strangling.

I have some personal memories of this. It was the summer of 1961 and I was ten years old. That was the year that Mantle and Maris were trying to break Babe Ruth's home run record for a single season. My dad was in the jukebox business and one of his stops was the Sahara Lounge. Since it was the summer my mom didn't want me hanging out on the streets all summer so a few times I went to work with my dad. My job consisted of handing him tools while he fixed jukeboxes and pinball machines or help him empty the coinboxes and separate the nickels, dimes and quarters while he rolled the coins and split the take with the bar owner. Well, this one day in the middle of the summer the bar hadn't opened yet and my dad went to collect his money. I sat at the bar with him and did my coin sorting (which was a great job for me.... I collected old coins and that was when there were still lots of them in circulation). Anyway, I remember talking to the bar owner about the home run chase and as luck would have it the Yankees game was on television then so he turned it on so I could watch it. One of the M boys (Mantle or Maris) hit a home run (I can't remember who) but I was excited by seeing that. OK, a few weeks passed and my dad came home after work with one of the local newspapers and showed it to me. The front page had a big photo of Larry Gallo with a big red mark around his throat (from the strangling attempt). I didn't know why my dad was showing this picture to me but then he explained it all happened at the bar where I watched the home run being hit just a few weeks before.

BTW - It was actor Danny Aiello who strangled Frank Pentangeli in that scene in Part II. And Aiello ad-libbed the line, "Michael Corleone sends his regards". FFC decided to keep the line in the movie (which added a little confusion to the storyline).

Supposedly one of the Profaci members in on the Larry Gallo attempted murder was Carmine (the Snake) Persico. You can search Gooogle to see the garrote line on Larry's throat. It was Page One in the Daily News at the time.

The "Michael Corleone says hello" line "adding a little confusion to the storyline") LOL! For a long time, that was the source of the number one question on this board: Did Roth plan Pentangeli's rescue?

Another throwback to the Gallos: When Pentangeli complains to Michael that the Rosatos "recruit n---ers, they recruit s--cs," FFC and Puzo are referring to Crazy Joe Gallo having recruited same while he was in prison for extortion, and using them in his post-prison rackets.

Great story SC. However, that series on AHC still propagates alot of OC myths such as Siegal naming the Flamingo after Virginia Hill. So, it's a challenge to trust their "facts".

TB, that's apparently true about Gallo getting close to blacks while he was in prison.

Supposedly, Tony Sirico (Paulie from The Sopranos) is in this scene in the bar with the attempted strangulation. He could certainly be one of the other guys, it's awfully dark and hard to make out their faces. Another Sopranos alum is "Carmine Sr." seen in the beginning wedding scene a couple times, looking not all that much different although he's not wearing glasses.

Yes. The partially completed hotel was already named Flamingo when Bugsy Siegel bought it from Billy Wilkerson, a degenerate gambler whose debts left him without the means to finish it.

While we're on the subject of those AHC episodes about OC, there's one where they maintain that a Massino capo went after two FBI agents and murdered one and injured another. I've never heard of anything like that happening. Anyone have any info on that?

I didn't know where else to post this and I didn't want to start a thread. In GFII, Vito comes to the US legally it appears. However, what about all of the Mafiosi who came to the US such as Costello, Gambino, Mangano, etc? The only Mafioso that I've read of who didn't was Carlos Marcello who Robert Kennedy ordered deported.

Do any Board members have any information regarding this?