I'm interested, tell me more.

Herbeck does not state that that Fino says "the family is not active." He writes:



This is constant with his letter to the Buffalo News in 2012 were he writes:



In other words the Buffalo family "still exists, because there continues to be a "remnant of of the mob" in Buffalo. (A remnant just means a smaller remaining quantity.) It is "not the same," because it is smaller. This smaller LCN, they "have hunkered down and try to carry on an image and air of respectability and this in no way means they don not exist and make money from illegal operations.... They operated clandestinely."

Here is the deal... We both read into these statements based on our presuppositions. So I don't think you can definitively say that is what Fino believes. Further, I would make a wager that if someone had a chance to discuss this issue with Fino, he would agree with my presupposition. But like that is ever going to happen. So who knows, maybe your right. I just doubt it.

Except here's the thing.

A. - Ronald Fino cannot possibly have any inside knowledge above, for example, the FBI on the Buffalo crime family considering he publicly flipped in 1989/1990. I have said this various times, even when the consensus was that he was on "my side," if you will.
B. - You've taken Fino's comment out of context. The very sentence before Fino is quoted, the article writes: "Today, both Cohen and Coppola estimate that there are no more than a handful of surviving mob members in the area, with no viable organization to unite them, and no leader."
So what Fino appears to be saying, in relation to the rest of the article, is that there are remnants of the mob left but no viable organization. I have never disputed that. I have always maintained that there are probably multiple members of the family that are still active in crime. You can choose to take Fino's comment out of context, but I am choosing to read it in relation to the previous statements leading up to that, and to the article as a whole, which is definitive in its explanation that the family, as a viable entity, is dead.

We can argue until we're blue in the face what Fino truly believes. But the fact remains that he is not only contradictory, but he is really not in a legitimate position to know whether the family is active. He does not decide whether the family is active. He is not a true authority on the matter. His opinion, I'll concede, is definitely important, but it does not compete with actual investigators, agents and prosecutors, which is where the bulk of my argument lies. We should also take into account that he is currently promoting his own book if I recall correctly, so it is in his best interests to inflate the Buffalo Mafia to fit his narrative. I am not saying that he is outright lying, nor that he has any real ill intentions behind what he's been saying recently, but a culmination of all these things means that it's hard for anybody to take Fino as a foremost decider on whether the family is active.

RON FINO TALKS ABOUT LCN, UNION CORRUPTION, & RUSSIAN OC

The above link to Ron's Interview on 8/7/18 has some interesting information. Most of it Ron has said or written before, but this shows his consistency of thought adding some other tidbits I didn't know or had forgotten. Here are a few things I found interesting:

1. He briefly mentions Buffalo being active stating he goes back to WNY from time to time and some of those involved are friends with him on facebook. (Not that he learns anything from them... the point is he knows they are still active.)
2. He continues to state then cleanup of LIUNA was never complete and that O'Sullivan was a crony of Coia intimating O'Sullivan and LIUNA are still corrupt. You will notice he suggests the corruption "has changed."
3. He talks about the prevalence of healthcare fraud and how easy it would be for the mob and unions to be involved in it.
4. He indicates Buffalo LCN controlled or had great influence on justice department in WNY putting federal prosecutors in place who were sympathetic to their cause well into 80's/90's.
5. He talks about why we can't always believe what we read in the newspapers even though the reporters are often "well meaninged" in their mistakes.

Nicky, I may have taken Fino's quote out of Herbeck's context... But I do not believe I took Fino out of context. This interview strongly suggests his continuity of thought on the topic and makes a case that Herbeck took him out of context. And yes, Fino is in the process of beginning to promote a documentary on his life, but I didn't believe he is sensationalizing or making things up to sell tickets. In this interview he makes a compelling argument why he doesn't sensationalize.

Furio, here is the FBI's actual 2006 Buffalo Crime Family chart that you referenced at the beginning of this thread. Living members have been redacted (blanked) for the following reasons: (b)(6) & (b)(7)(C):



(b)(6) personnel and medical files and similar files the disclosure of which would constitute a clearly unwarranted invasion of personal privacy;

(b)(7) records or information compiled for law enforcement purposes, but only to the extent that the production of such law enforcement records or information ( A ) could reasonably be expected to interfere with enforcement proceedings, ( B ) would deprive a person of a right to a fair trial or an impartial adjudication, ( C ) could reasonably be expected to constitute an unwarranted invasion of personal privacy, ( D ) could reasonably be expected to disclose the identity of confidential source, including a State, local, or foreign agency or authority or any private institution which furnished information on a confidential basis, and, in the case of record or information compiled by a criminal law enforcement authority in the course of a criminal investigation, or by an agency conducting a lawful national security intelligence investigation, information furnished by a confidential source, ( E ) would disclose techniques and procedures for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions, or would disclose guidelines for law enforcement investigations or prosecutions if such disclosure could reasonably be expected to risk circumvention of the law, or ( F ) could reasonably be expected to endanger the life or physical safety of any individual;

GREAT Find Nickle.

BENJAMIN “SONNY” NICOLETTI, THE BONNANOS, MONTREAL, VIOLI’S & HAMILTON

I recently reread The Niagara Falls Reporter Sept. 11, 2012 article on Nicoletti titled Falls’ Benjamin “Sonny” Nicoletti; Part of the Falls’ unique character by Mike Hudson. After the Bonanno making ceremony, Violi/drug trafficking arrests, and the mention of the Todaro Crime Family in the Hamilton area of Canada the following quote strikes me as interesting. Hudson writes:



Also his Rochester B team buddy Frank Frassetto was arrested for Heroin trafficking in 2006, if I remember correctly.

QUESTIONS
1. Could this indicate what was left of Buffalo was absorbed by the Bonannos?

2. If rumors that he was Buffalo’s underboss were true, did he use his respect and relationships to forge work across family lines and reinvigorate the drug trafficking triangle established by Magaddino and his cousin Joe Bonanno?

3. Is this just a hell of a coincidence?

4. Does it raise other questions about the O’Tremmens operation and the mention of a Todaro Crime Family being involved?

5. What are your ideas and thoughts?

Very possible. Everybody knows about the longstanding ties, but it's interesting to hear about Jerry Chilli too, who was still a high-ranking member until his recent death.


Woah now. Nowhere in the article does it allude to that.


What do you mean?



I don't think it throws much confusion into the prevailing theory of many, who believe that the "Todaro crime family" members arrested in Canada were members of the long-defunct Canada crew. It's doubtful that this crew could have died on it's own accord due to the lack of police pressure, but there is a huge reason to believe that it was taken over or absorbed by it's warring rivals, who murdered the Todaro-Canada crew's top leader and right-hand-man in one clean sweep.

I get the article nowhere allude to his working to reinvigorate the trafficking triangle... but no were in the article does it allude to the Buffalo Crime Family being absorbed by the Bonannos. Both notions are arrived at via inductive reasoning. They are just backed by different presuppositions.

If the family is active and organized (yes, I know the argument against) Nicoletti had the connections to reinvolve the family in this drug trafficking triangle. His friend Frassetto and his sons were know to distribute heroin in Rochester during the mid to late 2000's. Sonny was respected in Montreal, close to Bonanno Capo Chilli, and had a long established working relationship with the Violi Brothers, the Luppino's, and Papilia's who were all alleged to have strong connections to Buffalo. Just saying, if he was the underboss of Buffalo as is alleged by several unverified sources over the years, he could have played a decent role in the precursors to the Otremen stuff.

The following was posted by Antimafia on the thread "Another Mob Guy Murdered." Put it here as well for those who have been following this thread and trying to determine if Buffalo is active or not.

Very interesting article and it definitely adds weight to the claim that there's a Mafia presence in Buffalo. No specifics were mentioned from this article, so it would be a stretch to say that this article alone (from a Canadian reporter no less) discredits what the United States federal government has been saying for years, which is that the Buffalo Mafia is dead.

This article also does not mention the Todaros or anybody from the traditional Magaddino/Todaro organized crime family in particular, so this certainly doesn't vindicate The_Rooster or anybody else... yet.

In a nutshell, this article is Canadian reporters and cops making vague references to the mob in "New York State" and "Buffalo" (not necessarily the traditional Todaro crime family). Remember, police that are actually based in New York State have said that the Buffalo mob and the mob in Western NY is dead. So you'd have to be pretty biased to throw all of that out the window and take this to the bank to mean that the Todaro crime family is active and thriving.

Another thing that's important to note is that Canadian law enforcement are definitely years behind the FBI in terms of investigative power and ability. I don't say that to discredit the hard-working Canadian RCMP, but Canada is kind of like where the FBI was in the early '80s in terms of mob-busting. You'll notice that hits happen left right and center, and they often go unsolved, whereas in the States, mobsters live in constant fear of surveillance and most hits in the past 20 years have been solved. The vague language in this article is another indication that the Canadian LE don't really have a clue what's going on. The article doesn't even really answer whose SIDE the NYS mob is supposedly on.

Do I believe there is a Mafia presence in Buffalo? Potentially and probably yes. I've said before that it wouldn't surprise me if some other group took over where the Todaro mob left off. But do I believe that the traditional Buffalo crime family - i.e. the Todaros, Falzones, etc. - are still running things, business as usual? No, I have not seen any evidence of that and I've seen plenty of evidence to the contrary.

So there we go, Nickle, you've seen "Nicky from Tampa’s response and if he tries to explain this away".

Nicky, you said you believe that there is a mafia presence in Buffalo that isn't the original Buffalo LCN. In your opinion, what group do you think is in charge of things there, a group from somewhere else (Ontario, NYC) that has people running things for them in Buffalo, or a newly formed, independent group based out of Buffalo/Niagara area?

Thanks Nicky... you’ve got good points of course. I do believe this article, especially when combined with Humphries and others, corroborates what I’ve heard and elevates my case to more than “Street Talk.” I, also, find it interesting that the former officer “Paul Manning” who is quoted as saying “Buffalo will always have a say North of the border” had infiltrated the candian families in his undercover operation that went south in 2006. He must have a reason to say what he did—I.e. Buffalo was strong enough at that point to be able to have a say “up north.” He was definitely in a position to know at that time. And evidently Buffalo was strong enough that he continues to think they are strong enough to have a say on the Mob War going on now and so strong he can’t imagine they will not continue to have have something to say up north right in the future.. Of course— I am just connecting dots and I could have these dots out of order...and they could be painting a different picture.

Here is a link to the article Edwards did on Manning: Cop Betrayed By His Force

BTW I read somewhere that he penetrated the Papalia and Musitano crime families while undercover.

This is from Pet Edward’s Blog: Pete Edwards: Buffalo Mob Not Dead

I don’t think Edwards can make his position any more clear.

I don't think Pete Edwards can make his position any more clear either. And neither can the FBI. One of these people is a Canadian reporter, the other is a squad dedicated to eliminating organized crime in the city of Buffalo.



It could include the remnants of the Buffalo mob that were picked up by other organized crime outfits from Canada. It's been blatantly obvious that the Canadian Mafia has not suffered nearly as much as most U.S. families. Or it could be remnants of the Buffalo mob picked up by the NYC families. The Bonannos have been proven to have maintained longstanding ties to Canada as of 2017, and have historic ties to the city of Buffalo as well.
But, by 2006, the only members left of the Todaro crime family, as documented by the FBI, were elderly men whose positions seemed to be little more than symbolic. It's very hard to believe that they could have come back from that to not only form a functioning family again, but to exert influence over seemingly powerful, thriving, and violent Canadian groups. It just doesn't make sense for that to be the case.

Nicky I just posted the 2006 FBI chart. The redacted empties are all still alive today-12 years later. They may have been older, but 12 years is a lot of time for a lot of activity to take place. Further, we don’t know for sure, but it is very likely and I have it on good authority that Sonny and Leonard and others were active till close to their recent deaths.

Not necessarily. The FBI seldom updates their dead list unless specifically given a proof of death. It's not like they have people hired to go out trawling obituaries.
For instance, member Frank Billiteri, who died in 2010, is not on the list. Neither is Frank "Chicky" Grisante, Vincenzo "Gimi" Luppino, Donald "the Turtle" Panepinto, Frank Papalia, Joseph Pieri Jr., Richard Todaro, or other known members. Thanks to Wiseguy from BH for providing those names of deceased members in another post.

So that argument doesn't work because the FBI is generally very slow in updating their dead lists, and we can safely assume that the general attrition from "45" made members in 1989 down to 23 in 2006 continued, sharply and rapidly. That is, of course, unless those 23 elderly, geriatric old men decided to spontaneously induct a whole lot of young guys with the muscle to exert influence over the historically violent Canadian crews - the same guys that murdered John Papalia and his right hand man back in 1997 to effectively put the kibosh on Buffalo's Canada crew.

Nicky,

There has always been one Buffalo crime family.

It's clear who C.A. and L.E. and the media are refeing to.

Based on your theories that we have to believe L.E. and media over all else.

There is one logical conclusion here.

And it's not that there is another Buffalo LCN family.

That is not what they are saying.

As for U.S. law enforcement they are more advanced in U.S. however, not in C.A.

It is a ridiculous statement to say not to listen to C.A. law enforcement about this:

They are the ones inveatagiting this today as we speak.


It takes a BIG MAN to admit when he was wrong.

But the Fat Lady is singing....

There is simply no way you can put Buffalo LCN in same category as the other families that are totally DEFUNCT.

The situation up north has always been a mystery and not much has been known. That remains today but the people in the know who re the best ones to make the call.

Say the old Buffalo LCN family is still active.

How much? Who is calling the shots?
Is it traditional?

Is the power base in Hamilton?

We do not know.

Again an logical person would deduce that the traditional Buffalo LCN today is still an active family.

Their presence severely diminished in Buffalo itself but in some way shape or form mostly in York and Canada and probably guys from the York crew operating in Buffalo below the radar.

The old Buffalo crew a shell of itself some if the guys made big with legit business and due to their age probably aren't too active today.

Bensonhurst, if you believe that Canadian law enforcement is more "in the know" than American law enforcement about issues on the AMERICAN side of the border, that's plain illogical. Canadian law enforcement is years behind on Mafia issues in Canada itself, so it makes no sense that they'd know more about the Buffalo Mafia than the Canadian mob.

I don't claim to have inside knowledge, and so law enforcement and the press are naturally the best sources of information. But just because one CANADIAN reporter makes VAGUE and UNSPECIFIC statements about a mob presence in Buffalo - without specifically naming the Todaro crime family - that doesn't mean we should throw away what New York State-based law enforcement and New York State-based reporters have been saying for years.

I'm not sticking my fingers in my eyes and ignoring what this reporter has to say. But if you actually read the article, it becomes pretty obvious that the Canadian L.E. knows very little about the situation other than a broad, vague, and unspecific view of who the "players" are. No names of any Buffalo-based players. No specific naming of the Buffalo crime family or the Todaro crime family or anything. Just broad statements that the victim had connections to mobsters in New York State and Buffalo.
Compare this to the Buffalo-based organized crime squad, whose full-time job it was to rid the Mafia of influence in Buffalo. They led numerous successful prosecutions that dismantled the Buffalo mob's grip on unions, gambling, drugs, and loansharking, and were able to look at the major players still remaining in Buffalo (the overwhelming majority of them being elderly or imprisoned) and say "There's no way the Buffalo mob is recovering from this." And, as of 2017, these organized crime agents still stand by that.

Do you see what I'm saying Bensonhurst? Since Day One you've desperately wanted to believe that the Buffalo Mafia is still active, and you've made all sorts of bizarre theories and opinions. But if you look at both sides, you can see that this recent article - whilst it's interesting and definitely a talking point - does not conclusively prove anything.

If the investigative law enforcement elements in Buffalo step forward and say "Yes the Buffalo LCN is still active" or even if somebody like Dan Herbeck comes forward and says "Sources say the Mafia in Buffalo is still active and is recovering in strength" then I'd be far more inclined to believe the argument.


Also Bensonhurst, it's interesting how you completely ignored what I said about how illogical it is that the Buffalo mob were able to go from being mostly geriatrics in 2006 (with no more union grip, and diminished other rackets) to being strong enough to exert influence over the powerful, wealthy, young, and violent Canadian warring organized crime groups.

Why Nicky, for God's sake why? Is this some kind of psychological fetish that I haven't hear of yet??

One of these days I'm going to look out my window and see Nicky holding a sign that says "Proof?", like John Cusack in Say Anything.

What did I do...?
Am I really getting called out for making a logical point?

In my opinion that is all that you have been doing for months now, at least since the last time I checked but you keep calling these guys out when they don't respond to your logic or facts. So I have a lot of trouble understanding how you can keep this shit up, that's all buddy..

1) I did NOT take any digs at you.
2) I'm desperate? Really
3) Stop that B.S.
4) You must not have read my post

5) I said there is just too much evidence here for a a logically person to believe that the Buffalo LCN is defunct.

6) Too much explaining away

7) You just keep changing your argument.

8) A short while ago you were right because L.E. and media support your opinion.

9) Now Canada L.E. is not reliable and the Press that is running the story does not know what hey are talking about.

10) C'mon

11) Fino says the union is not cleaned up and Buffalo LCN still has a foot in the door you can't believe Fino.

12) The sons and associates get locked up for doing traditional LCN rackets, they are all independent.

Crazy theories ? there is a new Buffalo LCN family that they are talking about?

Please just because I have a different opinion than you is no need to start with the insults

We can disagree like gentlemen

Recent Events Lend Credibility to Former Undercover Officer Quoted by Pete Edwards Who Said the Following about The Buffalo Crime Family... Th following is from the " Another Mob Guy Murdered" thread on this site.


I'd say this lends credibility to Paul Manning. Remember Peter Edwards lists him as a source in his recent article that states:


And to write the following on his blog:

Holy Crap it’s getting good!! From antimafia on “Another Mob Guy Murdered” thread on this site:

No there's not.

No there's not.

I don't have inside knowledge of what's going in Buffalo. All I know is what's published in the media. So if I change my argument, it's because new evidence has come to light. Duh.


Why are you ignoring the fact that what this Canadian reporter is saying DIRECTLY CONFLICTS with what Buffalo and NYS Media and the American Federal Government have been saying for years?

It's not that "Canada L.E. is not reliable." But American L.E. and Canadian L.E. are saying two conflicting things. And who is in a position to know more about issues in Buffalo? American L.E.

Do you understand this? You must not have read my earlier posts in which I said this.



Fino was outed as an informer and left the life in 1990, for Christ's sakes. Yes, he's a smart guy and obviously knows how the mob works, but his information is 28 years out of date.
For comparison, that's like asking Sammy Gravano about who's in charge of the Gambino Family. Sure Sammy might have some insights, but how is he going to know any more than the rest of us.
Not to mention that Fino has said the Buffalo Mafia is dead, and then backtracked and claimed it's still alive. And his change in tune seems to coincide with him hyping his upcoming book.

Of course, I have mentioned that point about Fino various times in the past but, again, you must not have read my previous posts.


Which sons and associates have been locked up in recent years, Bensonhurst? Are you talking about the Violis?


On multiple occasions you've attempted to justify how the Buffalo Mafia could spring back up and regain power despite the fact that the vast majority of evidence goes against that.


And I'm disagreeing... Like a gentleman.

@Nickey
I've heard the point that US law enforcement is in a better position to know than Canadian law enforcement... I disagree there..


I think US law enforcement has better TOOLS ( like RICO) and experience to fight OC. But Canada has no RICO, low sentences for murder, ( huge incentive to not talk) and not that many rats, whereas NYC is compromised with Law enforcement. I don't think it's any surprise the rat in Canada, Morena came from the NY families.
( They still don't know who runs the west side, I doubt they know everything happening in Canada, which is where the action is if you are talking Buffalo...)


I think a major point here is that sort of like when Calabria says America, they mean Canada, when you say Buffalo, it might mean more Ontario/ Calabrian than Sicilians in Buffalo. I mean, Luppinos, Violis, Musitanos, all Hamilton based, what would the mob squad in NY have on these guys, if there are no rats?

In one of those articles, they mentioned some of the difficulties in making the case stemmed from having to work with all these different police in different jurisdictions. How many US agents speak Calabrian? Or familiar with the urban areas of Hamilton and Southern Ontario? They had to work with Mexico, the FBI, DEA.......



It takes a lot of coordination to make a case like this, lots of red tape probably.

Nicky,

Never once said the old timers in Buffalo are in power.

I said the opposite.

You are again reading it post.

I am saying I do not believe the family is defunct.

I said probably does not exist in its traditional sense however, most likely similar to families in C.A.
And I also said I thought the power base was probbal6 in C.A.

I said all this 6-7 months ago

Now a lot of people are saying something similar.

That's the crazy theories you are referring to.

Nicky wake up your battling the whole board right now

But there's no indication that the family had anyone other than "old timers" in 2006. And, as I mentioned before (you must not have read my post), it's childish to believe that the family decided to, all of a sudden, induct a whole lot of new, young members after 2006.



Huh?

Believe me, I know you don't believe the family is defunct.

Well then you obviously don't believe Peter Edwards article, do you? You know, the article you keep referring to as proof that the family is active?
Because that article explictly states that the mysterious, vague "Buffalo mob" is powerful enough to control things in Canada.
“Buffalo factions of Traditional Organized Crime are not ‘in’ Canada per se, but historically have controlled aspects of Canadian ‘family business’ and do get kickbacks from profits from illicit activity,” Manning said.
Buffalo would have to give approval for high-level killings, sources said, adding that mob leaders there are believed to have turned their backs on one side in the dispute and given tacit approval to the other.

“They’re all supposed to be under Buffalo,” one source said of the two feuding Ontario crime factions.


So, Bensonhurst, if you don't believe Peter Edwards article that the Buffalo mob - as in, the mob that is "not 'in' Canada per se, but historically have controlled aspects of Canadian ‘family business’ and do get kickbacks from profits from illicit activity" - is controlling things in Canada, then it appears as if the one shred of vague media info that backed up the assertion that the Buffalo mob is still alive is no longer on your side.


Here was one of your theories:


Now, you might've felt real proud saying that theory because The_Rooster commended that for being an incredibly well thought-out theory, despite the fact that Rooster knew damn well that the Buffalo mob has not had 100 members in a long ass time. I told you that and, surprise surprise, you ignored it.



Yeah, no I'm not. Since day one, you've been going on about how you've been trying to be neutral about this whole Buffalo debate, how you're trying to resolve both sides, but it's evident from the rudeness back in the Bufalino thread that you've wanted desperately to believe the Buffalo mob is active since day one, even before this Peter Edwards article came out.