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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Revis_Knicks]
#965137
03/02/19 10:02 PM
03/02/19 10:02 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635
AZ
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Tom also clearly does not like the direction that the corleone family is taking at the end of 2. He remarks to Pentangeli that “it was†in reply to his comment saying “Corleone family was like the Roman Empireâ€. I have never read the novel at all, but does it say Tom’s reaction upon finding out about Fredo’s murder? The novel ends where GF ends--with Connie watching as Clemenza kisses Michael's hand and says, "Don Corleone." You would definitely benefit from reading the novel.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Turnbull]
#965149
03/02/19 11:45 PM
03/02/19 11:45 PM
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Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,822 Where ever needed.
DuesPaid
Banned
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Banned
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,822
Where ever needed.
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Tom also clearly does not like the direction that the corleone family is taking at the end of 2. He remarks to Pentangeli that “it was†in reply to his comment saying “Corleone family was like the Roman Empireâ€. I have never read the novel at all, but does it say Tom’s reaction upon finding out about Fredo’s murder? The novel ends where GF ends--with Connie watching as Clemenza kisses Michael's hand and says, "Don Corleone." You would definitely benefit from reading the novel. I started it and put it down after reading several chapters. I need to pick it back up. Want to finish it, it seamed to have started to loose me with the Sonny parts and girlfriend.
Be Loyal, Be Loving, Be Quiet.
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: DuesPaid]
#965150
03/03/19 12:12 AM
03/03/19 12:12 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
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I started it and put it down after reading several chapters.
I need to pick it back up. Want to finish it, it seamed to have started to loose me with the Sonny parts and girlfriend.
Read it! Read it! Read it! By the way, it's Kay, not Connie and it ends with Kay saying a prayer for the Michael's soul. It's portrayed in one of the broadcasts, but I haven't seen it in many years. I wish they'd make it part of any GF broadcast.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: olivant]
#965169
03/03/19 12:29 PM
03/03/19 12:29 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635
AZ
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it ends with Kay saying a prayer for the Michael's soul. It's portrayed in one of the broadcasts, but I haven't seen it in many years. I wish they'd make it part of any GF broadcast.
Oli, I think what you're referring to is a VHS "Special Edition" (one of a zillion "Special Editions") that had additional material at the beginning of each movie. The beginning of GF had Puzo telling an interesting story: He had heard that Danny Thomas(!) was planning to buy Paramount so he could star in GF. "I was disturbed by that" (understatement of the decade). So, said Puzo, he contacted Brando about playing Vito and Brando said he'd be interested. At the beginning of the GFII VHS in this edition, we see a scene of Kay lighting candles in church and wearing a mantilla. And, you're right: the novel ends with Kay taking vows in the Catholic Church and going with Mama daily to say prayers for their husbands' souls.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: olivant]
#965210
03/03/19 10:17 PM
03/03/19 10:17 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635
AZ
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Oli, I've never seen a direct quote from Puzo on Johnny Fontaine/Frank Sinatra. But, it's a good guess that since he borrowed and adapted real-life Mafia characters and events to the novel, Puzo was repeating old stories about how feared NJ caporegime Willie Moretti coerced studio chief Harry Cohn to give Sinatra the part in "From Here to Eternity" that resurrected his career. That story isn't true: Cohn gave the part to Sinatra because his original choice, Eli Wallach, "wasn't skinny enough." It was also rumored that Sinatra sang at Moretti's daughter's wedding.
As for Jules/Lucy (one of the most boring and unnecessary parts of the novel, IMO): I've long believed that he included it so he could describe her gynecological operation in detail. I'm betting that one of Puzo's female relatives/friends had the operation. It fascinated him, and he couldn't resist putting it in the novel, in detail--just as he included all that Hollywood BS in detail.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Turnbull]
#965231
03/04/19 10:54 AM
03/04/19 10:54 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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I think most everyone would agree that the Jules/Lucy subplot was the novel's low point.
What I loved best about it was the background it gives on some smaller characters of the film - Luca Brasi, Neri, "the negotiator," etc.
Last edited by The Last Woltz; 03/04/19 10:54 AM.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Trojan]
#965282
03/05/19 01:51 AM
03/05/19 01:51 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,082 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,082
Australia
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My two cents worth! Brothers, all sentiments aside.... I reckon the brothers loved each other but it is the business they had chosen I don't believe Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes Michael's comment to Kay at Connie's wedding "He's a good lawyer. Not a Sicilian but I think he's gonna be consiglieri" was long before Vito getting shot, Sonny's murder I agree if not for Michael, Vito would have been killed by Sollozzo, with Police Captain McCluskey letting it happen Sonny agreed to Tom's advocacy to waiting and it appeared so did the most experienced Clemenza and Tessio too It doesn't constitute to me, negative opinion of Tom as I reckon it was all about Michael being the better strategist I reckon Michael would have resented anyone mapping out his future, in that flashback scene at the end of II No doubt Turnbull Tom wasn't Sicilian, so he didn't fully understand a Sicilian's overarching need for honor and vengeance against all logic. And, as a lawyer, he was oriented toward conciliation and negotiation, not toward force Vito was slipping If anybody is to be blamed, first and foremost, it is Vito for appointing Tom as consiglieri Michael's concern was justified and in times, detrimental too Tom seemed clueless It was his sheer incompetence "Duh-h-h, Tom!" My take, for what it is worth! It did not seem to me either “Michael blamed Tom for the Corleone's misfortunes†Sure thing "the brothers loved each other but it is the business they had chosen" Michael told blood brother Fredo off for taking sides against the family in the Las Vegas Greene incident ie: makes no difference blood or step brother [Michael introduced Tom to Kay as “my brotherâ€] Vito knew Tom was not a wartime consiglieri yet Vito made Tom, good lawyer, not a Sicilian, the consiglieri albeit in 'peace' time
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Frankie_Five_Angels]
#965283
03/05/19 01:51 AM
03/05/19 01:51 AM
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Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,082 Australia
Kangaroo Don
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 1,082
Australia
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Ref: thread Tom and Fredo may be of interest regarding Tom's shortcomings Than again, Michael had his own shortcomings and failings as well among others, - [also Don Tommasino] underestimating Fabrizio
- falling for 'spin doctor' Ola's 'propaganda' about Tropigala that Michael can move Klingman out and their friend [Roth] in Miami will go along [in spte of Ola bringing an orange! from Miami]
- underestimating Roth
- [also Vito] underestimating Fredo
- underestimating the Rosato brothers that they would “settle these troubles†with Pentangeli
- underestimating Kay [Kay overestimating Michael and self-deceiving, unrealistic legitimacy, let alone in five years]
- underestimating Anthony
- overestimating Vincent
Perhaps Michael could [should?] have handled differently - [also Vito] giving Fredo at least a face saving role in the family to show that Fredo is valued in his own right
- Michael not comforting his wife, Kay who just had a 'miscarriage'
- Perhaps if Michael had the same “losing the family†talk with Kay......second chance at their marriage
- The treatment of Tom the only person Michael could trust even though Tom was not the most competent! consigliere
- Hanging Frankie Pentangeli out to dry
- Not taking care of the 'dead' capo Frankie's family
- Killing his own blood brother Fredo
- handed Mary on a platter to Mosca Another woman dying in place of Michael
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#965285
03/05/19 02:09 AM
03/05/19 02:09 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635
AZ
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I think most everyone would agree that the Jules/Lucy subplot was the novel's low point.
What I loved best about it was the background it gives on some smaller characters of the film - Luca Brasi, Neri, "the negotiator," etc. Agreed. The best stories were how they found Neri, the Bocchiccios, Sonny and the boiler repairmen, Vito and his war with "Maranzalla" and Luca and the Capone gunmen.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Revis_Knicks]
#965286
03/05/19 02:13 AM
03/05/19 02:13 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635
AZ
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Does anyone think Vinny would’ve been a good boss? Was always interested in them making fmovie about him. Maybe with the de-aging technology, they can still do it. But they won’t. Vincent showed some maturity toward the end. But, when Michael told him, "Nephew, call yourself Vincent Corleone" toward the end, I think he was using him in two ways: 1) get him away from Mary; 2) put him in charge of the remaining muscle end of the family and maybe the "Olive Oil Business, but mostly as Michael's protector. Saying, "Call yourself Vincent Corleone" was a great way to cement his undying loyalty by finally accepting him as a real member of the family. But, I don't think Michael ever had him in mind as a successor to his legitimate business interests.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: olivant]
#965406
03/07/19 12:55 AM
03/07/19 12:55 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635
AZ
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When you think about it TB, why did Michael take Vincent on after Vincent murdered the two assassins that Zasa sent? As Michael's protector? Did Michael anticipate troubles? That's a curious scene. To keep the plot going, really. I suppose you could say that Michael was protecting his nephew, if you attribute that much family feeling to Michael. Regardless, Vincent was a pale imitation of Michael as Don. I think Vincent represents the new breed of Mafiosi who just don't have the acumen, the substance that previous Mafiosi (apparently) had. To me, they seem like just muscle. Agreed.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Kangaroo Don]
#965766
03/10/19 08:25 PM
03/10/19 08:25 PM
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Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 818
Trojan
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 818
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Ref: thread Tom and Fredo may be of interest regarding Tom's shortcomings Than again, Michael had his own shortcomings and failings as well among others, - [also Don Tommasino] underestimating Fabrizio
- falling for 'spin doctor' Ola's 'propaganda' about Tropigala that Michael can move Klingman out and their friend [Roth] in Miami will go along [in spte of Ola bringing an orange! from Miami]
- underestimating Roth
- [also Vito] underestimating Fredo
- underestimating the Rosato brothers that they would “settle these troubles†with Pentangeli
- underestimating Kay [Kay overestimating Michael and self-deceiving, unrealistic legitimacy, let alone in five years]
- underestimating Anthony
- overestimating Vincent
Perhaps Michael could [should?] have handled differently - [also Vito] giving Fredo at least a face saving role in the family to show that Fredo is valued in his own right
- Michael not comforting his wife, Kay who just had a 'miscarriage'
- Perhaps if Michael had the same “losing the family†talk with Kay......second chance at their marriage
- The treatment of Tom the only person Michael could trust even though Tom was not the most competent! consigliere
- Hanging Frankie Pentangeli out to dry
- Not taking care of the 'dead' capo Frankie's family
- Killing his own blood brother Fredo
- handed Mary on a platter to Mosca Another woman dying in place of Michael
Interesting list He was upfront during his marriage proposal, Been back longer than a year Working for his father Corleone killings Illegitimate Corleone family business
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Trojan]
#965793
03/11/19 10:43 AM
03/11/19 10:43 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635
AZ
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Back to: Did anyone else notice: In the Havana nightclub scene in II, when Fredo is playing host to all those politicos, Sen. Geary, putting on his best leer, says, "I'll have one of those redheaded Yolandas" (referring to the singer on the stage. If you look very closely, Michael rolls his eyes, as if to say, "There he goes again, thinking with his dick."
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Capri]
#967611
03/23/19 10:31 PM
03/23/19 10:31 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,635
AZ
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Three great John Cazale moments in GFII when he and Michael are having their tete-a-tete in the outdoor cafe in Havana: 1. Fredo says, "Sometimes I think I should have settled down, married a girl like Kay, been more like..." He pauses. We wait for him to say, "like you." Instead he says, "like Pop." 2. He bends down, grasps Michael's hand, looks away, mutters, "Mikey, I was mad at you"--almost ready to make a confession. Then he tears his hand away, gets angry and says, "Why didn't we spend time like this before?" pulling back from the brink. 3. Michael tells Fredo that Sen. Geary and some bigshots are coming to Havana. "I want you to show them a good time." Fredo hesitates for a moment, looks resigned, almost regretful, and says, "My specialty, right?" I see it as a precursor to "Send Fredo to run some Mickey Mouse nightclub."
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: Turnbull]
#967719
03/25/19 08:54 AM
03/25/19 08:54 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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"Why didn't we spend time like this before?" Not to get too deep into the weeds, but I've always felt the wording and syntax of this sentence is fascinating. Normally, if you're sorry you haven't had a great time together in the past, you'd say something like, "Why haven't we ever spent time like this?" That wording and tense implies regret for time lost but also hope for the future. But Fredo uses "before" without "ever" and speaks in the past tense, showing that something has happened that will prevent him from having a fraternal relationship with Michael moving forward. For instance, if you go to dinner with a platonic friend and realize you have feelings for each other, you'd say, "What haven't we ever done this?" But if you did it right after her wedding, you'd say, "Why didn't we do this before?" Anyway, that is a great "tell" from Fredo that he knows that he has crossed a line that cannot be uncrossed, and also a clue that Michael didn't seem to pick up on at the time, but may have by the time the New Year's Eve party rolled around.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: Did anyone else notice that .......
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#967946
03/27/19 11:32 PM
03/27/19 11:32 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
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"Why didn't we spend time like this before?" Not to get too deep into the weeds, but I've always felt the wording and syntax of this sentence is fascinating. Normally, if you're sorry you haven't had a great time together in the past, you'd say something like, "Why haven't we ever spent time like this?" That wording and tense implies regret for time lost but also hope for the future. But Fredo uses "before" without "ever" and speaks in the past tense, showing that something has happened that will prevent him from having a fraternal relationship with Michael moving forward. For instance, if you go to dinner with a platonic friend and realize you have feelings for each other, you'd say, "What haven't we ever done this?" But if you did it right after her wedding, you'd say, "Why didn't we do this before?" Anyway, that is a great "tell" from Fredo that he knows that he has crossed a line that cannot be uncrossed, and also a clue that Michael didn't seem to pick up on at the time, but may have by the time the New Year's Eve party rolled around. You have a good point Woltz. Fredo's lament is the epitome of regret (what might have been). By the way, in what part of Pittsburgh do you live?
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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