The National Pastime here (or at lest, for me).

I might be in the minority here but I reckon killing Roth need not have been one-way mission

He was like a deer caught in headlights, having no escape plans whatsoever

You raise an interesting point, Evita:

As portrayed in the movie, Roth was surrounded by reporters, cameramen and FBI agents as soon as he landed in Miami, so there was no way for Rocco to kill him except by getting right next to him. And, it seemed, Rocco's only chance to escape was by running--not much of a chance at all.

The point that has been debated here is why Rocco was selected for this seemingly one-way mission. In the preceding boathouse scene, Michael rejects Tom's suggestion that it would be impossible to kill Roth: "If history has taught us anything, it's that you can kill anyone." Then he immediately says, "Rocco?" I've argued (a stretch, I admit) that it's significant that Michael didn't say, "Al?"--thereby selecting Rocco for the one-way mission. Why? For Michael's purposes, Rocco was expendable, Neri wasn't. Rocco was Clemenza's man, Neri was Michael's man. Why did Rocco accept? No alternative especially considering that Michael had just humiliated Tom for saying it was impossible to kill Roth in the Miami airport.

Another one of the most debatable topics!

Did Rocco Kill The Tahoe Shooters?
Extract:
Michal's choices
Extract:
My take, for what it is worth!

I do not believe “For Michael's purposes” anyone is "expendable" Michael would not want to lose his men unnecessarily
Pentangeli was Michael's muscle Rocco was the security chief....

If my memory serves me right, I cannot recall any of Michael's men not coming back alive? from previous jobs

Neri been already picked for Fredo's killing So it is logical Rocco gets picked for Roth's Killing

Rocco's “running--not much of a chance at all” Buckleys and none!
The way Roth's killing was done, Rocco couldn't have stood out more if Rocco had a neon light flashing on his head!

My take, for what it is worth!

The buck stops with the Security Chief The blame is solely on Rocco's shoulders

Michael was living in a fortress with sentry, armed guards, dogs etc. and yet assassins were able to spray his bedroom with bullets!
This ridiculous security breach "in my home" would have been the laughing stock

What happened in Michael's home was a disgrace! However acknowledge Rocco's incompetence was forgiven

InterNational! Pastime Turnbull (or at least, for me) Down Under, the Great Southern Land

Good points Lana

Michael would not sacrifice his men especially his top men and Neri already had Fredo's job so Rocco got Roth's job

Both Michael's men now neither was expendable

Everyone of Michael's men came back alive from previous jobs

Rocco is shot while standing right next to a stairwell or escalator. We don't know what's at the bottom of those steps.

Michael had nothing to lose by killing Roth in such a public fashion.

1) It signified to the other Families that no one,regardless of their power or position, is beyond Michael's vengeance.

2) No way, no how, does Rocco escape alive. No direct testimony from the shooter to implicate Michael.

3) Let's say Rocco does survive. He knows as well as anyone what happens to potential witnesses against Mike. I say he keeps his mouth shut,takes a deal brokered by some (unseen but friendly) Government/Law enforcement contacts,does his (less than life) time and retires to a comfortable existence.

4) Lastly,let's say Rocco is captured alive,flipped by the Feds and decides to testify against Mike.All you have is (at best) the uncorroborated testimony of an accomplice, which is admissible in exactly zero Criminal trials. No one in the room when Mike gave the order is going to talk. Given the whole Cicci/Pentangeli debacle, no prosecutor in his right mind is going to publicly "harass" Michael again,especially when he would be playing with an even weaker hand this time around. Q; "Mr. Corleone, isn't it true that Mr Lampone is a high ranking member of your Crime Family" ? A: No it is not" Q: "Did you order Mr. Lampone to murder Hyman Roth"? A: That is a complete and utter falsehood" "Thank you Mr. Corleone. The Prosecution rests".

At least that's my 2 cents worth.

I will have to watch that scene again but as I remember, it is not the standing it is the running that got him killed

The Godfather Novel - What did Don Vito Corleone see in Rocco Lampone

As user Danito on 23 May 2009 perhaps aptly posted
Extract:
Michael's bodyguard in Havana, Bussetta died on the job

That's what happens! if you turn up with a coat hanger for Ola and try to improvise with a pillow for Roth [Rocco take note!]

Well, Bussetta was technically not one of Michael's 'regular' men in the family
Ouch! Is that why Michael didn't even bat an eyelid when Tom told Michael at the Desert Inn “Your bodyguard is dead”

Exactly. Bussetta was a hired gun, probably taken on by Michael because he couldn't be sure at that time that Rocco and/or Neri weren't involved in the Tahoe shooting--as he told Tom before leaving, "Our people are businessmen, their loyalty is based on that." Coincidentally, he wanted Roth to think that, by not bringing Rocco and/or Neri to Havana, he was still in the dark about who ordered the shooting.

This may have been mentioned before, but...

When Michael shoots McCluskey, the first shot is in his throat, but the red dot indicating the second shot, to his head, appears at the same time.

When Sonny is machine-gunned, bullet holes appear on his car, then disappear, then appear again.

Probably true. However, if that was the reason, he recruited B pretty quickly since the attempted murder took place late and he was leaving in the morning.

So did Bussetta! 24/7

How Tom knew everything that happened in Cuba

Find my answer here:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=472494&Searchpage=1&Main=16944&Words=%2BFredo+%2BRoth+%2Bconspiracy&Search=true#Post472494

When Roth told his wife to go and play bingo, she says too quickly if you're sure you're feeling better and then, she was faster than lightning, going down to the casino

where was the wife when Roth came back

You see her, briefly, in the lobby of the hospital when Roth is being wheeled upstairs.

She was not at the airport Maybe she was allowed to stay in Israel

When Tom went to Hollywood to meet up with Woltz to ask Woltz to give Johnny Fontane the part in Woltz' new film, in the beginning both Tom and Woltz were referring to Woltz in the third party

Tom: Johnny Fontane's friend is my client, who'd give his undying friendship to Mr Woltz if Mr Woltz would grant us a small favour

Woltz: Woltz is listening and then What favour would your friend grant Mr Woltz?

Michael walks funny in New Hampshire

I always took that as Hagen didn’t want to let him know he knew who he was. He knew Woltz had an ego and wasn’t going to give him the satisfaction of letting him know he knew about him. Once he said Woltz is listening Hagen says ‘give Johnny the part in the new war film YOU’RE starting next week’. It was all gamesmanship in my opinion.

GFII was showing in my neighborhood, and since I've never seen my favorite film on the big screen, I decided to go. Because I live in Oregon, and I am legally allowed to use marijuana, I opted to see the movie in the theatre after eating some marijuana edibles. I walked to the theatre and also got a beer and some popcorn. I hope this doesn't violate any rules—again this was all legal on my part. 

I observed a lot of things in the background, like a lot of the extras. Also the violence on the big screen is really enhanced, especially the scene with Geary in the brothel and Vito paying Don Ciccio his last visit.
Here are some other things I noticed that I have never noticed before (forgive me if these were obvious things or if they were already mentioned on this board):

* The look Kay gives Michael after the shooting while the family is huddling in the living room is the most furious, piercing look in the entire movie.

* When Roth tells Michael that Pentangeli is "small potatoes," he takes a bite of a potato chip.

* After the Cuban rebel blows up the grenade, the next scene cuts to the candle on fire on Roth's birthday cake.

* When Michael and Fredo are talking in Cuba, the song "Guantanemera" can be heard. Also in the background a sailor and a gal are chatting it up. 

* The camerawork during Michael's bodyguard creeping around Cuba is phenomenal. Especially the scene after he gets rid of Johnny Ola and is hiding. But also when he gets to Roth in the hospital. As he climbs the stairs with the flowers the camera zooms out of a lady crying over someone dead on a hospital bed. Never noticed this before.

* When Vito goes to see Fanucci in the cafe, right when he walks in another man who was waiting inside by the door immediately walks out.

* This one is super super obvious, but I never noticed that Vito getting the gun in the towel on the roof is just like the scene where Michael gets the gun from behind the toilet in GF1. Also when Vito walks back to his family after the hit and is in the middle of the festival, that scene is amazing. There is so much going on.

* When Michael walks to his mother's house, there are a ton of crows cawing all around the outside of the house.

* I watched Kay the entire time during Michael's statement to the committee. There was nothing but emptiness in her demeanor. 

* While Pentangeli is in custody, one of the FBI guys says "I'm gonna shave you myself in the morning." I inferred this to be FFC foreshadowing Pentangeli slitting his wrists.

* The entire Pentangeli testimony scene is hilarious (if you're rooting for the Corleones, which I was). Hagen is so, so, so smug in that scene.

* The camerawork is again phenomenal when Michael, Tom, Rocco, and Al are talking about meeting Roth at the airport. 

* When Tom goes to see Pentangeli in custody, this line made me really sad lol:

"We was like the Roman empire—the Corleone family, was like the Roman empire."
"It was once."

* Also when Tom is with Pentangeli in custody, it's like Frankie is suggesting the whole thing about the hot bath and his family being taken care of, and is offering that solution to Tom. I always thought it was the other way around until I saw it again last night (but this is just what I observed, I'd be curious to see what other people thought).

* The entire theater (which was like 20 people) laughed when Vito feeds young Michael the olive in the scene in Italy, and also when Sonny and Michael get in a fight in the flashback and the kids are laughing about it. 

* When everyone goes to say happy birthday to the Don for his surprise party and Michael is sitting by himself at the table, way in the background you can see his father's study and his father's empty chair.

Anyway, just some things I noticed even though I've seen this movie many, many times

That could be the model for the old cliche, "If looks could kill." Right then and there, you know it's all over between Kay and Michael.


I believe the guy in the bed is Roth, because the woman in white is his wife, Marcia.

Yes, it was Frankie suggesting the solution to Tom. He started out by saying, "What do I do now, Tom?" He thought it through for himself. Excellent observation. In fact, all your observations are right on the money. For me, and for a lot of people here, it's those brilliant details that help make GF and II great: You can watch each a thousand times and still find more details that you hadn't noticed before.
Please post some more.

Oh whoa, that is his wife! Never put that together. That makes the scene creepier, thus making it better. 





Here are some other things I noticed:

When Michael asks Tom to leave so he can speak to Johnny in private, when Tom leaves the room, the camera lingers on him for a pretty long time while you can still hear Michael and Johnny talk. Just thought that was an interesting shot.

During Roth's birthday scene on the roof, I'm not sure if I overthought this, but it seemed like Michael was absolutely trying to sour the mood. Roth is very friendly, making sure everyone sees the cake and makes a little quip about his birthday, and distributes his territory. Then Mike starts talking about the rebels. This is understandable, because of the Lake Tahoe hit, I just thought it was almost funny and that he was kind of trying to show him up in front of everybody. Bold move.

I was fascinated by how Michael communicated to his bodyguard. He first gives him some kind of signal after Roth's "this is the business we've chosen" speech, then gives him another signal at the Superman show. Both times, he merely just looks at him. 

When Vito goes to see Fanucci in the cafe, it's a pretty intense scene at first until Fanucci starts making faces then it gets a little comical and less intense. But when Fanucci accepts that mere $100 it seemed to me that that's when Vito was like "Okay, this guy is soft, I just gave him $500 less and he's not going to do anything about it, so I'm going to take care of him."

Also in the theater there was an intermission! This happened after Vito makes it back to his family after the Fanucci hit. Then it made me think of when I first saw GFII, which was on VHS. There were two tapes, and that's exactly where the first tape ended. I'm curious as to what formats others saw the movie in?

This made me sad, but at the end of the flashback where Vito is waving little Michael's hand and is telling him "Michael, say goodbye," the next scene cuts to his dead mother. "Say goodbye ..." That was sad. 

Anthony is somewhat involved in both Vito and Fredo's deaths. Never put that together cause I forgot that Anthony is the same kid in the garden in GF1.


Anyway, just more observations. I'm sure I'll have a ton more next time I see it!

More excellent observations, Buscetta! Keep 'em coming.

As for Anthony being somewhat involved in Vito's and Fredo's deaths: this raises a credibility point:

Anthony was about to go fishing with Fredo and Neri when Connie told him he had to go to Reno with his father. We hear the lethal shot clearly in the last scene before the flashback, indicating that the murder happened close enough to shore to be within Michael's hearing, So, Michael either didn't go to Reno, or had returned. Either way, Anthony could have heard the shot, too. I think it was directorial license: Neri would have wanted to be as far from Michael's estate as possible so he could dump Fredo's body and be reasonably sure it wouldn't be found--way out of earshot.

Near the beginning of III, Connie tells Michael at his party: "Tony knows you had Fredo killed." I think she must have told him.

I don't recall an intermission when I saw II in first release at the theater. Nor do I recall an intermission on my VHS copy.

In III, we see a page 1 story in the Wall Street Journal with a headline about Michael's attempted takeover of Immobiliare. But, the text below the headline is from a word processing how-to manual.

In II, when Michael and the other gringo businessmen are sitting around President Batista's table, we briefly see the Senate lawyer, Questadt, sitting directly behind Roth.