and let's not forget Michael was a closet homosexual

Well put Evita

Michael's enemies were always and still trying to kill him as we saw in Godfather 3

Another powerful scene in a timeless movie indeed

"Fredo is embracing Michael while sitting in his chair, like an innocent child, while knowing what his fate is"
fate is presumably death?

However it looked like Michael had forgiven Fredo, the brothers hugging each other after Connie's tearful plea until we saw Michael's chilling kill order look at Neri and Neri's subtle nod

Fredo could have thought the same believing he had gotten a pass Fredo wouldn't have known with Mama Corleone's death his time was up

"As painful as Fredo's death is, I think by the nature of Michael's business Fredo had to die"
Wasn't the nature of Michael's business supposedly legitimate by Fredo's death? He was a legitimate businessman!

You are right Fredo's actions were [continuously] treacherous indeed

Still Michael could have easily continued the same arrangements of keeping Fredo under watch or similar until Mama Corleone's natural death. He had the money and the resources
Besides if Mama had lived longer....

Fredo's "Mikey" as Michael was walking away after Fredo's outburst in the boathouse, sounded dejected

Spot on! "so that people like us would be talking about it to this day, nearly a half century later" "while we've still got the mussscle!!!"

In a better (i.e., non-Mafia/non Michael Corleone) world, Frankie might have had a case for survival because of how Michael manipulated his loyalty:

Michael was at his most manipulative after the Tahoe shooting. First he played Tom's emotions like a violin ("I always wanted to be thought of as a brother by you, Michael"), then he scared the rs**t out of Frankie at Frankie's home--then said he wanted Frankie to "help me take my revenge." "Michael...anything," Frankie practically collapsed with relief. Michael sent him to put his head in the lion's mouth by meeting with the Rosatos--to suit Michael's purpose. If he settled the problems with the Rosatos, it was one more worry off Mijchael's mind. If the Rosatos killed, or tried to kill, him, it was further proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting.

Ok can you please explain that one to me? Maybe so - but nothing I have seen would indicate that is the case. Also, not sure what that would have to do with the subject at hand anyway whether he was a closet homosexual or not.

I think in Michael's world, they all (with the exception of MAYBE Frankie) had to go. Sorry - Freddie got what he deserved (in that world). He obviously knew he was doing wrong, and allowed his jealousy of Mike get the best of him. I am personally of the opinion he was more cunning and in the loop than most here give him credit for as well.

That's my opinion, too:

http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=472494&Searchpage=1&Main=16944&Words=%2Bconspiracy&Search=true#Post472494

I reckon Carlo's murder was a no brainer No way he could be spared

I believe Fredo was going to be spared

Michael was still trying to get Fredo out of Havana saying Fredo was still his brother

Michael told Tom at the Desert Inn, "I know Fredo's scared, tell him everything is all right. Tell him I know Roth misled him and he didn't know they were planing to kill me"

Then Fredo readily hurt Michael again by deliberately withholding the information, not telling him about Pentangeli's survival, Questadt belongs to Roth because Fredo obviously still wanted to harm Michael again He was still trying to send Michael to Prison

No doubt Fredo's actions were continuously treacherous

Fredo's seemingly untenable situation.....Besides if Mama had lived longer....

I think Michael may have considered giving Fredo a pass, but that violent, resentful outburst in the boathouse--Fredo never making an apology, and admitting that he betrayed Michael for personal gain--sealed his fate.


That is a real anomaly. Michael was frantic to get Fredo on that plane with him out of Havana. But, by the time he arrived in Vegas for his meeting with Tom, Rocco and Neri, Michael simply told Tom to "get word" to Fredo, when he could easily have Fredo brought to him immediately.

Frankie should have had more faith in his Don irrespective.....

Even though chain of events including -
Frankie getting little or no help / support from Michael in his troubles with the Rosato brothers all because of Michael and Roth's Father / Son 'alliance'!
Clemenza promising the Rosato brothers three territories in the Bronx after he died was in dispute too

Michael turns up at Frankie's house and asks him to "settle these troubles with the Rosato brothers"
"If the Rosatos killed, or tried to kill, Frankie, it was further proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting"

However I believe Michael was not expecting Frankie to come to any harm other than the humiliating back down, perhaps handing over the three territories and in the process looking weak etc.

In my opinion if Frankie is killed and Rosato brothers, Roth's ally take over the Corleone operations then Michael loses his muscle and becomes just another casino operator, easy pickings for anyone which would be bigger worry for Michael?

As you have said [or similar!] many times, Turnbull, when blinded by revenge and greed it can affect the judgements of even a master manipulator like Michael

I too believe Fredo was going to be spared "but that violent, resentful outburst in the boathouse--Fredo never making an apology, and admitting that he betrayed Michael for personal gain--sealed his fate" Fredo's situation became untenable

My take, for what it is worth!

"Michael was frantic to get Fredo on that plane with him out of Havana" For Fredo's safe passage out
Michael's "get word" to Fredo was to assure Fredo everything is all right

Fredo's true treacherous betrayal only came to light at his boathouse outburst and sealed his fate Fredo's situation became untenable

A lot of unanswered questions are left. What was Fredo's actual role in the shooting? If he left a gate open or gave any info that led to the shooting of Michael and possibly Kay, then I would have to say Fredo deserved to die. Cicci and Frankie Five Angels are out of the picture. What happens with the Rosatos? Do they align with Michael? A side question: it's been mentioned that the original III, was going to have Cicci in it. How was he going to have any standing after testifying against his Don?

Just before the shooting, Michael remarked that the drapes to the bedroom were open. That led a lot of people here, including me, to believe that Fredo opened the drapes to aid the shooters. If so, it puts the lied to Fredo's statement, "I swear to God I didn't know it was gonna be a hit." Why else would they have wanted the drapes to be open?

I believe that Roth was colluding with the Rosatos. Why else would Roth--who lived in Miami and had business interests in Cuba and Nevada--take the Rosatos' side in an obscure beef with Pentangeli over three territories in the Bronx? IMO, Roth's plan was that Pentangeli would be blamed for the Tahoe shooting and the Rosatos would take over the NY operation run by Pentangili that was Michael's muscle-in-reserve. When the Tahoe shooting failed, Roth's backup plan was to lure Michael to Cuba, get the $2 million from him, have him killed in Havana, then have the Rosatos kill Pentangeli so they could take over NY and weaken Michael's successors.

Thanks TB - yeah I've read that thread before. I haven't posted too much on here as you can see by my post count - but I've read just about all these threads and I concur with you 100%. Also I find that you are the best poster on here kind sir.

Looks new theory not floated before

I've said this before, but the idea that Michael viewed Fredo is a threat is totally disproved by Michael's own treatment of Fredo.

He gives Fredo an indefinite lease on life - allowing him to live as long as Mama is alive - and even grants him access to the compound to visit Mama.

Is it really conceivable that Michael - who we all agree was totally paranoid - would allow an enemy to walk free for 5, 10, 20 years? Much less come to his home.

No, it's not conceivable.

Michael's killing of Fredo was personal, not business.

Your point is well taken, LW. A counterpoint:

Yes, it was personal--how could his brother betraying him with near-lethal consequences not be personal?
But, Michael may have been coldly calculating, in addition to having the usual paranoia that comes with being a Don. He may have calculated that Fredo had been frightened enough by being found out so that he was not an immediate threat, especially since he wasn't living in the compound anymore, and was therefore not privy to info or proximity to Michael that could be useful to Michael's enemies. Another guess: Mama may have been sick, so his instruction to Neri--"I want nothing to happen to him as long as my mother is alive"--was a short term commitment. In the event, Mama died soon after: Michael returned from Cuba in 1959; the hearse outside Mama's wake is a '59 Cad, and Roth, who was whacked well after Mama died, said he was returning to the US to "vote in the [1960] election."

"Forgiving" Fredo at the wake, and allowing him to live in the compound, was the classic "keep your friends close but your enemies closer." Perhaps Michael, in his Donship paranoia, calculated that, after Mama died, Fredo would feel unconstrained to betray him again--just as, after Mama died, Michael felt unconstrained to whack Fredo.

Maybe TB, but consider this. A funeral home would not necessarily dispose of a hearse just because it is a few years old. So, Mama's '59 hearse could have been used in the following years. Also, Michael's testimony at the Senate haring could have mimicked the McClellan hearings which took place in '63. The election to which Roth refers at the airport could have been the '64 election. Puzo invented Roth's attempts to enter south american countries, but his rejection by Israel took place in '72.

I'm not saying you're wrong, Oli, but FFC was clearly "mixing metaphors" all through GFII. The Valachi hearings did occur in '63, and the charts shown in the movie were perfect copies of the charts shown then. But, McClellan held hearings about organized crime racketeering from '57 through '60. Meyer Lansky, the obvious model for Roth, was rejected by Israel in '72 and landed in Miami after that, but he never suffered a stroke or attempted murder on New Year's Eve, 1958-9 (I don't think he was even in Cuba that night). I'm basing my surmise about Roth returning "to vote in the [1960] election" on the statement he made in his Havana hotel room to Michael: "Just looking for one man who wants to be President, and having the cash to do it."

In the novel, it mentioned Michael went to gay bars to pick up protection money but his bodyguards noticed something else going on aswell hint hint similar to John D'Amato from Jersey.

In the scene with Moe Greene, he winks to Johnny Fontane. This is an indicator

True enough TB. I just wish that FFC would publish a timeline that makes some sense.

Robert Evans actually said that in The Kid Stays in the Picture. They knew The Godfather would be timeless. They worked extra hard getting the family relationships right so that future generations would find the film relevant.

It's amazing how one thing like this can make a difference.

Joe Pesci's first movie is called The Death Collector. It's really not a bad movie, except for the disco soundtrack. If they use rock and roll music instead of disco, who knows how that film holds up? Just imagine if Scorsese had used disco music in Mean Streets. Yikes. He knew rock and roll was where it was at. The Stones "Tell Me" makes the Volpe's introduction scene work to this day. I hear millennials praising it.

Michael kept Fredo under watch or similar until Mama Corleone's natural death, not quite walking free?

I reckon Fredo was being constantly shadowed even in Michael's home because when Michael went to talk to him, in the boathouse someone, looked like Rocco, leaves

He had no choice, out of love and respect for Mama He couldn't bring himself to put her through the loss of another son

Can you explain more on that because I don't quite get what he means by "family relationships"

The way I see it is the film is still relevant because violence and crime is more common and popular among the youth. TV, music and from what I've experienced giving police the finger is cool and means you aren't weak

The soundtrack is a big part of what makes "Mean Streets" great. My favorite: Charlie looking adoringly at himself in the mirror while putting on the monogrammed shirt his mother bought him, while the Chantels are singing, "I Love You So." Also, Charlie, Tony and Jimmy driving to Joey Catucci's pool room while the Paragons are singing "Florence" --quintessential New York Doo Wop.

Scorsese did a great job of mixing '50s rock and roll ballads with 60's rock. Noticeably missing from most of Scorsese's movies is the classical pop music that is most often connected to mobsters, i.e., Sinatra, The Rat Pack, etc. I'm not sure if it's a personal aversion (he's clearly a rock and roller, he even worked on the Woodstock movie), or if it's just to better represent the viewpoint of the lead characters, be it Charlie in Mean Streets or Henry Hill in Goodfellas, who are both about the same age. These guys didn't grow up on swing jazz. They grew up on The Beatles and Motown. In Casino, Scorsese used a lot more of the Rat Pack, classical pop music, as Ace Roethstein was about a decade older than most of the other Scorsese leads. Of course, Robbie Robertson of The Band was music director for many of Scorsese's 80's and 90's movies, so a lot of these decisions could have had to do with his personal taste.

Those soundtracks ya'll have cited above are outstanding and are a big reason why we repeatedly watch those films (By the way, I'd like to toss in A Bronx Tale; the acapella is in a league by itself.). But for me, the best by far, is in Goodfellas where Jerry Vale sings Pretend You Don't See Her as the camera pans the mobsters in the nightclub room. To see the faces of those mobsters so pacified in contrast with their hardened selves was brilliant staging.

In the late 90's I was at a restaurant in LA and one of the younger women that worked there played around with an old fashion jukebox. When she walked away, the long version of "I Only Have Eyes For You" by the Flamingos from A Bronx Tale plays, the one that starts with the guys singing it acapella.. What a great tune. I'd pretty much forgotten all about the movie at that time. I went out and got the soundtrack CD within a few days, and rented the movie. Of course the CD got all scratched up and I lost it before I ever had a chance to rip it to a hard drive, but what a great album it is. Thinking of buying it again.

I liked the "Streets of the Bronx" acapella, too. A group called Cool Change performed it in the film. Here it is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jKmgXcs-bqg

And, don't forget this chilling performance by Donald Byrd.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2KvM2T40RQ

And, here's the Flamingos/Complexions mash up of "I Only Have Eyes for You"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wTfa1H_82Y

At around 1:20, it switches to the Flamingo version. Clever mix.

Scorsese relies too heavily on soundtracks, in my opinion. His movies would not stand up well without all the songs played throughout them. Mean Streets is occasionally referred to as low budget, but he had Rolling Stone and other big songs such as you mentioned in that film, and they must have cost big money.

Notice, though, that you don't see Vale's face in that scene. Probably would have had to pay him more if he'd shown Vale's face.

Who in the Trilogy should have been whacked that wasn't?

I start with the piccolo player in II who made fun of Frankie.