Keeping in mind that "success" has many dimensions and definitions, all of them subjective, who do you think was more successful in his life: Vito or Michael?

Definitions indeed! However, some success is measured by distance: how far as one come to achieve some level of success.

Vito came from nothing to the pinnacle of the underworld. Michael built on his father's success (and his father's knowledge). Vito died playing with his grandson; Michael died ... well, you know the rest.

Vito, hands down.

Vito for sure.

He built something from nothing, was loved and respected and died in his garden playing with his grandson.

Granted, Michael built on what Vito started, but eventually gave everything up and died alone in a dilapidated Sicilian villa.

I agree completely with Oli and LW. I’d like to embellish:

In my experience, the most successful people focus on a simple but over-archingly important goal, and maintain focus on it despite every distraction, provocation and temptation. In Vito’s case, I believe his witnessing a two-bit gaboletto having his father, brother and mother killed with a wave of his hand defined his goal: achieving security for himself and his family. Sicilian immigrants were victimized by pezzanovanti, so Vito focused on being a pezzanovante , achieving power to make him their equal—and superior. He became very wealthy, but he never flaunted his wealth: it was a means to an end—power—and power provided him with influence and security. He achieved legitimacy through the respect and devotion he won by providing fellow immigrants with favors and protection. The politicians and judges he bribed gave him power and protection, and many were loyal to him because he kept his word. He knew that he could never be “legitimate” in their world, but he hoped for that in Michael: “,,,Senator Corleone, Governor Corleone…”

Michael was born with a silver gun in his hand. In contrast to Vito, Michael was never focused on a single goal-- he wanted everything at the same time. He wanted to be the top Mafia Don in America—and he wanted to be considered “legitimate” at the same time—it wasn’t a goal, it was an obsession. The key is found in the scene where Michael woos Kay in New Hampshire:

My father's no different than any other powerful man –
(then, after Kay laughs)
-- Any man who's responsible for other people. Like a senator or a president.
KAY
You know how naive you sound?
MICHAEL
Why?
KAY
Senators and presidents don't have men killed...
MICHAEL
Oh -- who's being naïve, Kay?

In other words: Since Senators and Presidents send men to war to be killed fighting America’s enemies, Michael demands to be considered “legitimate” because he has his enemies killed. It was the source of his lifelong frustration: he constantly won battles and lost wars:

He flaunted his enormous wealth with a party for thousands and a big contribution to the State University…but Sen. Geary denounced him as a greaseball and shook him down. He stepped over Fredo…and Fredo betrayed him, nearly getting Kay and him killed. He outsmarted Roth…but never got Roth’s Havana empire. He outfoxed the Senate subcommittee…and lost Kay and his unborn son. He had Fredo killed…and alienated Anthony. He wanted power for power’s sake: He sold the casinos and thought of himself as “out,” but he was never “out”: he was still wanted to be the "Pope" of the Commission. He spent hundreds of millions on the Church to get his Knighthood of St. Sebastian…and Archbishop Gilday betrayed him. Kay called him out for his hypocrisy at his Knighthood party. "I spent my life protecting my family from the horrors of this world," he shouted at her..."But you became my horror," she shot back. He had Gilday and all his other enemies killed...and an assassin hired by Connie’s godfather killed his beloved daughter Mary.

And, as Oli and LW pointed out: he died, alone and heartbroken, in a decrepit Sicilian villa, attended only by a little dog. According to the novel, Vito's last words were, "Life is so beautiful." Not for Michael.

My take, for what it is worth!

Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused Michael dying “alone and heartbroken, in a decrepit Sicilian villa, attended only by a little dog”

The crucial factors [in no particular order!] were -

• The most crucial factor was Vito and Michael's wives
• If Michael's wife Kay was like Vito's wife Carmela, Michael too would have had it all!
  When they married Kay knew Michael was Mafia, working for his father unlike Carmela [Vito became Mafia after]
• Vito didn't have to contend with his insolent sister, brother's betrayal, wife's abortion etc
• Vito “knew that he could never be “legitimate” in their world, but he hoped for that in Michael: Senator Corleone, Governor Corleone…” thus placing the impossible, unrealistic burden of the “obsession” on Michael “the source of his lifelong frustration:” Thanks! Pop
• It could be argued Michael's “obsession” was Vito's “goal” for Michael
• Vito planned all the dirty work - killing of Carlo Rizzi [for Michael to make his daughter a widow] and Moe Greene, the baptism murders - for Michael to carry out after Vito's death thus leaving a murderous legacy for “I never wanted this for you” son
• Vito could have handed the family business to Clemenza & Tessio and let Michael try to start a new life, away from Mafia, then Michael also could have “died in his garden playing with his grandson”
• Vito “stepped” over Fredo making Michael the Don and Fredo “betrayed” Michael “nearly getting Kay and him killed” which boiled over the downward spiral Kay's that look
• Michael could not “provide fellow immigrants with favors and protection” like Vito as Michael was a “legitimate” businessman
• I believe “in the scene where Michael woos [!] Kay in New Hampshire:” Michael [was genuinely striving] to be considered “legitimate” and not “to be the top Mafia Don in America”
• Sure thing Michael down the track was never “out”:
• Michael “flaunted his enormous wealth with a party for thousands” Vito did similar with a big party for Connie's wedding
• In fairness, no one got Roth’s Havana empire because of the Cuban revolution
• and Times were changing indeed

Nevertheless

• If Michael had not been greedy, burrowing into Roth's empire ie: satisfied with his Nevada gambling business, Roth and Ola would have had no reason to cultivate Fredo to betray Michael and the Tahoe bedroom shooting would not have happened
• Then Kay, part of the same “unholy and evil” hypocrisy, champion self-deceiver that she was, would not have been spooked and unnerved - the trigger to 'abort' their unborn 'son' and may have kept going with “this Sicilian thing”

Both Vito and Michael were evil murderous monsters but Vito lived and died 'happy' as could be under the circumstances thanks to his wife, Carmela

Michael racked by sorrow and regrets even before Mary's murder eg: Michael's confession to Cardinal Lamberto

Vito may have coached Michael to Head of the most powerful Mafia family but because of it Michael lost everythingelse

My take, for what it is worth!

Vito was instrumental, contributed and caused, among others -

Sonny's death
Sonny died trying to protect his sister from the abuse by her husband because Vito did nothing

Fredo's betrayal
Vito “stepped” over Fredo making Michael the Don but did nothing for Fredo not to foster jealousy, resentment of his kid brother

Michael's misery

• Vito planned all the dirty work - killing of Carlo Rizzi [for Michael to make his daughter a widow] and Moe Greene, the baptism murders - for Michael to carry out after Vito's death thus leaving a murderous legacy for “I never wanted this for you” son
• Vito “knew that he could never be “legitimate” in their world, but he hoped for that in Michael: Senator Corleone, Governor Corleone…” thus placing the impossible, unrealistic burden - and Vito's “goal” for Michael - of the “obsession” on Michael “the source of his lifelong frustration:”

Connie's insolence, whoring, neglect of her children because of her widowhood

Thanks! Pop indeed

and making Tom not a wartime consiglieri

Vito failed Michael, condemned him to doomed life

Personal life short answer Vito thanks to his wife, Carmela Turnbull and Lana embellishments very interesting read

No doubt if not for Mama Corleone the family would have fallen apart
She would have stood by him no matter what even the bedroom shooting

Vito had to contend with the murders of his whole family when he was just a child too

True but I was referring only to the incidents that happened after Michael became the Don

Incidentally Michael also had to contend with the murder of his first wife Apollonia, dying in his place too

Fair enough

He lived and died better than his children thanks to his wife, Carmela

Vito's action, inaction and slip ups adversely affected every one of his children including violent deaths Thanks! Pop indeed

and Luca

also Michael's horror wife Kay adversely affected
Why she left the children with unholy and evil father? Biggest hypocrite

Apollonia would have been like Carmela

Turnbull - while I tend to agree with that entire post largely - I sort of disagree with the "in other words" part of your statement.

I could be wrong, but I always interpreted that scene as Michael telling Kay how senators and presidents can have their enemies killed just a like a Mafia Don. I don't believe Michael was talking about sending men off to war fighting America's enemies. I believe he is referring to senators and presidents killing off their personal/political enemies.

Capri, I don't think Kay voluntarily left the kids with Michael--I think he won custody in a divorce case. Also, I think Kay got them back quickly. Discussed HERE...

You probably are right that Michael believed that senators and presidents have their enemies killed. I think he may have broadened it to mean sending men to war to make it plain to Kay.

she told him she 'abort' their unborn 'son' after he said impossibility, to get herself out of the unholy and evil knowing without the kids, not knowing if she ever see them again Ever!

She did not have them in II had them in III not quickly What is several years?

..

My two cents worth!

Michael and Kay, sentiments aside....

I am beginning to wonder she was leaving no matter what
No doubt she would have known he would never allow it and she was leaving anyway even without the kids

Michael had already told Kay, very clearly, he won't let her take the children from him that it is an impossibility
Even after that she tells him about the 'abortion' the murder of their unborn son as if

I reckon Kay, a mother, was totally irresponsible to leave the children in the unholy and evil environment because she wanted to escape from the abortion of her marriage

Why did Kay leave the children in the unholy and evil environment?

Sure thing Kay is not stupid Kay was leaving no matter what

It seems to me, Kay wanted out of her 'abortion' of a marriage at any cost even without her children, just abandoning them with the unholy and evil father - what a selfish hypocrite!

And Michael was sprung by Kay in front of Rocco! Fancy telling Michael that “children are outside, we are going” in front of a buttonman!
Michael at least had the decency and sensitivity to send Neri and Rocco out of the Desert Inn room before discussing Fredo with Tom

Kay: “The children are outside we're going” “I brought the children to say goodbye to you”
Michael: Goodbye! [yeah, right!]

Tom: That plane goes to New Hampshire
Michael: That's where I want it met!

How can Kay as a mother leave their children [according to Kay] especially Anthony who is 'not' fine, in the unholy and evil Sicilian thing, with the father who is 'blind' to everything other than business and the children's friends are Michael's buttonmen?

How did Kay get the kids?
I doubt Kay got the kids back quickly
Several years is not many The children, Anthony and Mary were little, young at Hotel Washington scene and all grown up in Godfather 3

I believe, Kay's excuse to want out of their 'abortion' of a marriage is unconvincingly lame and pathetic
Kay was happy to enjoy the spoils of the unholy and evil Sicilian thing for five years, the 'original' time frame for legitimacy and then two more! Go figure!

Nevertheless once Kay got into Michael's car at New Hampshire....!!

Do senators and presidents have their enemies killed?

Whilst some Presidents have been killed, the killings were not by their enemies?

What could Michael have meant? another debatable topic!

Kay: Senators and presidents don't have men killed...
Michael: Oh -- who's being naïve, Kay?

Kay said she was going to take the kids--she wanted them. Michael could have physically stopped her. She would have gone to court to gain custody in a divorce. US courts almost always grant custody to the mother. But she made a fatal mistake in hurling at Michael that she had an abortion. Abortions were illegal in the US at that time. Her abortion would have been enough for Michael's lawyers to make the case that she was an "unfit mother" under the law.

I've speculated before that Kay could not have known for sure that she was carrying a boy--amneocentesis was unknown in the US at that time, and her pregnancy was only 3 months along. I think she was trying to be cruel to Michael in shouting at Michael that "it was a boy!"

No doubt courts almost always grant custody to the mother unless she was an "unfit mother" under the law

No doubt she was being cruel to Michael in shouting at Michael that "it was a boy!" She did say, Yes, yes it does, to his Does it feel like a boy

No doubt she was hurting him to the maximum but did she really think,
She could just take the children?
He would just let her even before the abortion outburst?

She was so worried about them yet totally irresponsible and selfish to leave them behind with blind him
I reckon she planned it all along Kay is not stupid

Michael figuratively speaking

My take, for what it is worth!

Here's the thing about the 'abortion'

No doctor would dare perform an abortion on Michael Corleone's wife

The 'abortion' was Kay's spiteful hurling at Michael when Kay realised she can't take the kids if "she wanted them"
Michael was right! Kay did not know Michael or that was Kay's plan all along

Sure thing “Her [Kay's] abortion would have been enough for Michael's lawyers to make the case that she was an "unfit mother" under the law”

Nevertheless even if there was any divorce/child custody hearing Michael would undoubtedly keep something like the abortion [Michael wouldn't want it to get around!] suppressed, from being aired in public, in the courts even though the abortion line would be a sure-fire winner

I can't see Michael, no way, would he 'parade' all these sordid details of how his wife aborted his child risking all including imprisonment for this illegal act because his wife wouldn't bring another one of his 'sons' into his “unholy and evil” world

Michael would have found other ways including probably having the divorce/child custody hearing if any, dismissed – Difficult not impossible

I doubt Kay “would have gone to court to gain custody in a divorce” [even without the abortion debacle] would take on Michael's power and money No brainer!

Just for the hell of it! even if the illegal abortion actually happened against all odds – onus of proof....

not Tom! Kay played this one beautifully

Good points Lana I reckon no way, would he 'parade' all these sordid details

Probably not. Though abortion was illegal in the US at that time, any woman or girl with a few hundred dollars (probably less than $500) could have had an abortion done by a real doctor in an office or clinic. Still, it was a risky business for a doctor, even in Nevada; and although Michael was trying to pose as "legitimate," a Dr. would have to be deaf, dumb and blind not to know his reputation. That's why I tend to think it really was a miscarriage, as Tom said, not an abortion.

I agree that it would have been difficult or impossible for Kay to get an abortion in Nevada.

But there are early versions of the GFII screenplay floating around the web that include a subplot where Kay escapes the compound while Michael is in Cuba and briefly returns home to New Hampshire. I think Kay could have found a willing doctor (maybe a family friend) there who would have performed the abortion.

As for the divorce/custody issue, I can't imagine any circumstance in which Michael would have allowed his personal business to have been aired in public court. I think the arrangement they appeared to have in GFII - Kay leaves the kids with Michael but has visitation rights - was worked out privately.

Did anyone else notice that ...
Extracts:What surprises me is Michael 'accepted'? it was abortion

Appreciate due to time constraints not dissimilar to Fabrizio, Rosato bothers, Willie Cicci – no one gets a pass from Michael Corleone – killings, everything could not be shown however something huge, controversial, provocative as the abortion....

There wasn't enough time, wasn't enough time

what proof for miscarriage? abortion not supported in the movie Why Michael 'accepted'? it was abortion