I know we've discussed this topic before, just trying to generate a good dialogue

Completely opinion-based question, not a historical question

Who was right and why, in your opinion?

Danny Greene for refusing to repay a loan he never received

or...

The Gambino's for demanding repayment on a previously agreed upon loan, regardless of delivery

I guess the easy answer is it's the courier's responsibility, or that NY is owed simply because they're NY and that's that. Let's assume there's only one correct answer, either Danny Greene or New York, who do you feel was in the right and why?

More of an opinion/stance question, feel free to replace the characters or the agreement with other hypotheticals to explain/prove your point. I find it's a delicate comparison but there are plenty of similar what ifs. It's a tough debate as I find it easy to see both sides of the debate, however someone must have been wrong in the end and someone always needs to pay.

Im agree with Greene,why pay if you doesn't had the money ? If the corrier lost the money the blame was of the gambinos. Greene never said that dont wanted to pay the big and with time repay the debt; but the Gambino acted like a billy and shandor bines prefered to stay with ny and Greene killed him.

Who's courier was it?

I too want to know, how did Billy Cox get a hold of the money?

Did Greene set up a robbery while in transit?
Is this is what is assumed?

What facts does anyone know?

There's a chance they set him up from the get go. The "family" in Detroit would have to back up New York as they are not supposed to go against another made guy by saying the cash never showed up. So at this point who knows for sure?

I thought it was on record that Shondor Birns set up the loan through Castellano's crew either from directly Paul or somebody else. If not Paul my guess who be Nino Gaggi who primarily loan sharked but that is purely conjecture on Gaggi having anything to do with it.

I'm not sure the exact person who issued the loan was identified past being a high ranking Gambino.

It was also my understanding that it was confirmed Birn's courier. The loan was arranged via Birns as a conduit to New York, I always though Greene had no direct connection with the Gambino's until this occurred as I had understood it.

@ItalianIrishMix I can't see Greene setting up the robbery. He went to Birns as a mentor/friend to set up what he thought would be a night spot similar to Birn's. The way I looked at it Birns was schooling Greene and Greene saw an opportunity to attempt to set up an empire similar to Birns' by starting the same way, with a restaurant/bar. I always thought it was just truly bad luck with the courier and that everything happened as a result of his mistake. It certainly is not assumed on any level Greene asked someone to ask the Gambino family for $75,000 and then colluded with a courier he was likely strangers with to take a coke trafficking charge for him and "lose" the loan in the process. I can't find an angle where that has any logic behind it.

Food for though, $75K is truly not a large sum in that respect, if he were to want that amount, surely it could have been robbed locally from either connected or non-connected lower level operators, certainly one that ranked far lower than the Gambino Family.

@dixiemafia I highly doubt they were setting him up, there was truly no reason to at the time, he was barely a mid level debt collector if we're being honest with his position at the time this all occurred before he grew into what he became as far as stature. Do you have any info or story to back up Greene being set up? Personally I can't see why it would occur, he was doing leg work for Birns at the time, he crew wasn't developed and active on that level yet, he wasn't a threat that would have required a "set-up" that all came later as a direct result of this.

This is why I made this an opinion based thread. Was just looking to gain additional insight as to how people saw this situation in their personal opinion (if any of you have those) as it seems to be a universal question. "Does one still owe on an undelivered loan?"

I can understand the complaint from both sides, via NY they released a loan, that was what they were required to do. Birns fucked up the courier, this was his involvement, and Greene was to repay money upon delivery which never occurred. it's easy to say it was Birns and Cox's fault but I guess my question is regardless of a middle man, the loan was direct to Greene from New York no matter who else as involved. In your personal opinion, does Danny Greene owe regardless because he ordered cash from a loan shark and that shark promptly released the cash? Or did New York have a deeper responsibility to make certain the money they leant got to the person responsible for repaying it?

Tough question IMO, can be argued from either side. Just here seeking opinion, no right or wrong answer the way I see it.

I always felt things didn't add up with Shondor Birns borrowing 75,000 dollars from the Gambino Family

Shondor Birns was pretty wealthy from being in the rackets
He was the keeper of the peace among the clearinghouses
In Cleveland.
He was the number 1 loanshark from Euclid to Bay Village
He had his hands in prostitution also.

So he had no reason to borrow money from the Gambinos.plus Cleveland was represented by the Genovese.

If Birns was gonna borrow 75,000...I think he would
Have asked Scalish for it.

I don't think it was a set up. But I do think Birns was responsible and that he passed that responsibility on to Green.

Are you guys serious? $75k in the 70s is like $350k...thats a lot.

I know only what I have read and it seemed like a set-up. Birns would not need to borrow money from anyone to loan that much to Greene. Birns knew Greene wouldnt pay money he never got back. I do not believe for a second an expirenced loan shark would be as sloppy and careless with a loan from the Gambinos as Birns was in this instance. Tho Greene was not yet huge competition to Scalish and the Cleveland fam at this time they were aware by this time Him and Nardi were doing thier own thing and I dont think they were ok with it. It gave them a legit reason to go after Greene and prematurely stop his rise in my opinion.

Idk about this debt to the Gambino family. I read that Danny Greene was looking into opening a cattle farm out in Texas and he and John Nardi went to talk to Castellano about a deal.

That was after the loan I thought

Tony Milano went to go see personally Big Paul about the meat deal for the cattle ranch in late 76.
What's intresting is whose side was Milano on ?
I know Milano wanted Carmen and Peter to get their hands
Dirty a bit and align themselves with Greene/Nardi.
But it never came to fruition.

I think Jack White telling Milano to step aside created much friction.

As it goes I think Greene/Nardi was planning a 2nd trip
To see Big Paul and the plan was to have them.lilled
In Paul's backyard.
But Nardi got blown to pieces anyhow